Sid Roth

Sid: I’m going to make you a promise there’s going to be such a flow of God’s Spirit, that all things are possible.  My guests in the studio Michael and Cyndi Hinson I’m interviewing them on their brand new book I have copies in my hand.  Our office has plenty of them for you called “To Heal the Heart,” subtitled “To Life to the Fullest.”  Michael had a four day visitation from God.”  Tell me a little bit about that visitation Michael.

Michael:  This came out of sometime of calling out to the Lord and asking Him to show me my heart.  I had no idea that what I was asking; I was thinking that He would come and give me a pat on the back and tweak this and correct that and take some blinders off in this area.  When He came He came in His full glory and manifestation and when He did it was so overpowering; it wasn’t that He showed me individual things that I’ve done wrong in my life; He didn’t pull out some record book and say “Here’s what happened on this day.”  His glory started filling the very presence of where I was everywhere around me and it so lit up the room that when I was in it I was cowering simply because of the strength of His glory and the power.  Everything that was dark in me; anything that was self serving; anything that had a motive other than God’s purpose and plan it was like a dark spot in my heart.  It was like dark clouds showing up on a clear cloudy day they didn’t belong there. I could see every detail of them not because He had some record book with every wrong in it.  He did not want them there in me; what He wanted was that His glory to displace them, the light dispels the darkness, but the darkness what there because I had not repented of these things.  I had no idea that I was walking in this; I didn’t know that many of the things that I thought I was doing for God was serving myself.  There was many things that I thought I’d just done casually that I could see the truth of God’s hand in it in the very beginning.  He showed me my heart that I had never seen before; all the trials and the things I had gone through showing me those individual things the truth of the glory in them took place in me. I was overwhelmed because His glory was so strong that anything dark inside of me it made it almost impossible to be in His presence.  I repented for them as quickly as I could and went on to the next. More of His glory would shine and it would be harder for me to be in His presence more things inside of me that again I had a pure heart I believed.  I never thought for a moment that with every bit of my ability my hands were up in church, my heart was singing out to the Lord and there didn’t seem to be anything encumbering my relationship with Him.  I just wanted to be closer to Him so I asked Him to show me my heart; I had no idea what He was going to show me and I had no idea that kind of darkness could be in any person.  The people I pray for much less than my own heart; when God came and showed me the presence, when His presence filled me and surround me it was very difficult for me to breathe in His glory.  It wasn’t that I was taken up to Heaven; He came here and when He did again it was such a bright light it was such a fullness but it had no end to it, there wasn’t a starting point or an end to it it’s just all encompassing.  Everything about me, every motive, every intent it was as if there was a light shining on every single one.  And the ones that were pure just naturally fit in the scheme of things but those things they were like big banners that said this needs to change.  So God doesn’t come with some finger pointing at you for all the things, He wants to embrace you but anything inside of you that is contrary to His nature He’s going to keep you from being embraced.  Not because you don’t want it but it’s going to be there between you and Him until something is dealt with.

Sid: Many of you are saying “Oh, I know it will be difficult but I wish God would give me that type of a visitation.”  That’s why God did it for Michael because out of that visitation came this pure teaching of “Healing the Heart” so you can Live to the fullest. I’ve been making this book available for the last two weeks it’s a brand new book called “To Heal the Heart.” Michael I have been sensing the presence of God for healing, I don’t know what He wants to heal.  I do know one thing because I heard it as I started to say this, I do know that He wants to heal backs, he wants to heal backs right now in Yeshua, in Jesus Name.  Michael I know if you’ll pray God will flow.

Michael: Well Father, we come before you now in the Name of Jesus Christ and right now everyone that’s carrying burdens they know that they should not carry.  You’ve been carrying those waiting for God to move and change your heart, or change your situation or do something to make your life different.  Right now you need to do something, you need to release those cares, those burdens that you have been carrying.  You need to let go of those things that you have been trying to change and fix and for some of you need to line up with you know the Lord told you to do but you keep waiting for Him to somehow change His mind.  And His silence is not His approval; you need to release it even now.  In the Name of Jesus I speak on their behalf releasing things at Your altar, the weight of them we let go of now in Jesus Name.  We turn to You and we ask you to move on behalf even now we thank You Father, in Jesus Name we thank You, we thank You.  There’s some others you know who you are, sleeplessness at night the anxieties, you can’t find contentment in anything you do but you’ve been trying ever so.  You’ve been searching everywhere you can; you’ve lost intimacy in the things that were important to you.  Others very similar what you’ve done you’ve replaced it with busyness now, work is your focus, the hobbies are your focus; you’ve made something else more important, and you’ve lost that closeness and that intimacy with God and you want it back so badly.

Sid: And you know what, there are even people with ministry has become their focus rather than God.

Michael: Now they’re living off of the approval of the people and no longer asking God to be their one and only source of gratification in what they do.  Now they’re looking for that place very well.  I know that place very well, I was there not knowing before He came and showed up it was a completely different picture altogether.  This is so easy to do also, if that is you then just do this Father I repent and I return to my first love. 

Sid: Father I repent

Michael: And I return to my first love.   

Sid: And I return to my first love.

Michael:  You once had all of my heart.   

Sid: You once had all of my heart.

Michael:   And led every step I took.

Sid: And led every step I took.

Michael:   I repent even now.

Sid: I repent even now.

Michael:   And I choose to come home.

Sid: And I choose to come home.

Michael: And follow Your path.

Sid: And follow Your path.

Michael: In Jesus Name.

Sid: In Jesus Name.

Michael: There are others that you know that your heart has become callused and even as your listening to it now it doesn’t seem to mean anything like it used to.  You know your destination, you know the path that you’re on.  And you also know this there’s been no contentment in your life ever since then.  You’ve become busy and your head’s full of noise, and your hearts heavy, but there’s no contentment.  This is not the life that Jesus promised.  The life that Jesus promised is full of contentment and joy and even through your trials there is a peace, loneness is not there, and the drive is not there.  There is contentment beyond words; for those people I say this to you.  “Release it and let it go, run again to your First Love.”  Let things go that you are now think that you are mastering because they’ve mastered you, they’ve captured you and now you’re trying to find fulfillment in them and it’s just not there.  And just say this prayer. Father, I release these things.

Sid: Father, I release these things.

Michael: There is not fulfillment in them.

Sid: There is not fulfillment in them.

Michael: There is only fulfillment in You.

Sid: There is only fulfillment in You.

Michael: In Jesus Name.

Sid: In Jesus Name.

Michael: There are others that are dealing with loneliness and depression.  Some here have broken hearts, grief, there are still other’s here with anxieties and fears that are just eating at them.  These are easy things to take care of when you know the path to go on, but you can’t continue to do the same things you’re doing now and expect the outcome to be different.  What you need to do is make changes; changes in your own heart.  Some of you are actually thinking that as soon as some else changes things will be better.  The truth is that’s a lie. You can have the situation that you’re in right now as ugly as it may seem you can find joy by simply releasing these things and giving your heart to the Lord.  You may need to go back into the same things, but let’s lead you in a prayer that is simple to do this.  Father.

Sid: Father.

Michael: I lay my cares down at your altar.

Sid: I lay these cares down at your altar.

Michael: I give You my family.

Sid: I give You my family.

Michael: I give You my health.

Sid: I give You my health.

Michael: My marriage.

Sid: My marriage.

Michael: My finances.

Sid: My finances.

Michael: Even my job.

Sid: Even my job.

Michael: All of them came from You.

Sid: All of them came from You.

Michael: Their all Yours.

Sid: Their all Yours.

Michael: And I give them back to You.

Sid: And I give them back to You.

Michael: I cannot change my circumstance.

Sid: I cannot change my circumstance.

Michael: But I can change the way I serve You.

Sid: But I can change the way I serve You.

Michael:  I release them.

Sid:  I release them.

Michael: And I choose.

Sid: And I choose.

Michael: To follow You as You direct me.

Sid: To follow You as You direct me.

Michael:  In Jesus Name.

Sid: In Jesus Name.

Michael: And one last thing, there are some people that are flat out deceived and do you know how you know you’re deceived?  You don’t your deceived.  So let me give you the answer. Look at the fruit of your life, if you have joy and contentment in your heart? Are you sleeping through the night without effort?  Are you free, content, do you have the fullness of God, when you read the word does it come alive in you?  These things are symptoms of a life that is free and that is what God promised you. But if you don’t have it or if you have heaviness, if you have anxieties; now don’t misunderstand me all of us go through trials at some time or another, but the freedom God promises is different than this.  If you have the heaviness, the weight, the frustration, the sufferings, the anxieties, take a look because there is a reason for it and be willing to change your heart.  At least be willing to change your thinking God will change your heart.

Sid: Well, Mishpochah what Michael’s talking about this is the type of thing that he has the most anointed teaching from the Word of God that will set you free in all of these different arenas and he’s been teaching this for years and seen such fruit.

Sid: There are things that are stopping you and I believe one of the greatest spirits of the age that is trying to stop you from fulfilling your destiny, from having your happiness in your marriage and with your family.  From having your health be perfect from having your…from  being able to absolutely walk into your destiny from even hearing God’s voice clearer than you’ve ever heard it before is the spirit of the age, the spirit of fear.  And one of the things that Gary Whetstone that many people are suffering from is an absolute terror and fear of finances.  But before we talk about this, this book that you wrote, the research that you did; you didn’t just do it because there was a need you really felt God’s hand on this; explain.

Gary:  God gave me a mandate to research every cause and effect in the word of God that deals with fear.  How it affected everyone Biblical from the Old Testament patriarchs to our current day apostles that we read in the New Testament. It unveiled the major causes of fear and the how to see them clearly in there operation. And you know the word fear, and I found that there is an anachronism that kind of brings it clear to understanding it is F: false E: evidence A: appearing R: real; FEAR – False Evidence Appearing Real.  Whenever a person trusts in their history in their flesh they only have something that they know that they’ve done before, and therefore there is evidence that’s there and to step out into something or something that God initiates they feel the restriction.  I’m going to give you a scripture in just a moment.  There’s another cause that fear is here and these are the four major factors that I discovered in the word of God that will change everyone’s life.  A it is trusting the flesh, believe it is.  B, 2) is believing information as it naturally appears.  Reports, a doctor’s report, a financial report, any report that comes.  3) Is the sensory reactions that occur, when my senses are affected and fear is a reaction. 4) It is entertaining evil imagery.  Pictures that are in our mind, pictures of falling off a cliff, falling off a bridge, pictures or dying of suffocation, of having injury in life.

Sid: And by the way, these pictures are easy to come by if you just watch television or go to movies, or get on the internet, what about the addiction that’s going on now with pornography they say that’s the worse addiction than heroin.

Gary:  It is more profitable for those that are producing pornography than any of the major corporations out there because of the additive nature of that imagery of the mind.  Listen to this scripture in Roman’s Chapter 8 verse 15 it says “For you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you have received the spirit of adoption whereby we cry ‘Abba Father, or Daddy God.’”  Whenever a person identifies limitation that’s where fear is the results.  If I wake up in the morning and I perceive I’m only going to make so much money today because this is my payroll I will then have fear to step out in new decisions.  I’m going to give you an example, I worked, I own my own corporations we were bringing in about 10 million dollars a year. One day I’m in a board meeting and God speaks to me “Go in a resign.”  This company made up 1/4^th of all of my income and I heard God put in my heart “Resign.”  I thought, “But that’s going to being to be 25% of I’ve got 40 employees, I’ve got trucks, we’ve got retail stores all over, manufactures wrapping business, I’ve got five corporations under me and this represents 25% of our business.  And I said “God, what do I do next?”  And I heard the voice of God say “Give them the representation of their product from the Mississippi all the way to Maine.” I never did that before Sid I had no idea how to do that, but I walked into the board meeting and I said “Gentleman I’d like to let you know today I appreciate being here, but I resigning as your wholesale distributor in this 4 state region.  Which was Delaware, New Jersey, Pennsylvania and Maryland.  They just about past out because I was about 20% of their sales, and they said “You can’t, but what?”  I said “What I’m going to offer you is the entire Mississippi to Main territory and all I want is 15% commission. I said “But you don’t have to answer me right now, I’ll stay in my hotel for another hour or two before I fly back you can call me, and send me the contract; I appreciate our time together.”  And I walked out, no fear, no fear of losing 25%.  I get a phone call back in my hotel room, they agreed to it that one agreement created over $250,000 in profit the next year.  Instantaneous manifestation of revenue without any expense no warehousing, no wholesaling, no employees.

Sid: But fear would have stopped you from doing that but why did God want you to do it, I’m curious?

Gary:  Well, I was always supporting the gospel of Jesus Christ, I was always taking not just a tenth of our income, but we were selling heating equipment and I was going into the homeless, the people that had needs, we were providing hearing systems for them and I just wanted to see money flood the kingdom of God.  It had to go for the Kingdom of God I wasn’t in ministry yet, I was still working in the working world. Everything I knew I lived for was to see the Kingdom of God advance.  And that’s what He said, “If you seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness all these things will be added unto you.”  I believe people get created thoughts constantly from God but because of fear they don’t take action on them. They are so familiar with the limitations that they live in that the false evidence appearing real is the standard they live by; fear becomes their faith and they are resistant to the voice of God.

Sid: Can I tell you something. I was so fearful in a lot of the things that I’ve done in the ministry I’m in but I so trusted God that it trumped my fear. I know as a fact, if I hadn’t trusted God I would have never have had this ministry that God’s entrusted to me today, never.

Gary: Absolutely not, if we ever allow or history to dictate our next steps we we’ll never take the steps God’s ordained because bondage is what we’re familiar with.  It’s what we’re comfortable with.  So many people think faith is about getting free from conflict, faith isn’t about getting free from conflict faith is about conquering your next opposition.  It’s about ceasing new territory, it’s about taking what God has given to you as inheritance and crippling everything that has defeated and demeaned you.  People are held by fear in their relationships; they’re afraid to speak a word to their teenagers because they’re afraid of the repercussions of it.  People are afraid to exude love because they’re afraid to be hurt, people are afraid of taking out and stepping out financially even trusting God in giving because they think “What happens when the money’s gone, how’s God going to get it to me.”  Fear has had such an overwhelming crippling affect if has clipped people at the knees and reduced them to bow to that power.

Sid: Give me an example in your life, for instance you’re a pastor, you’ve got to get a new church, it’s going to cost 4½ million dollars and you know it might….that was an impossibility in the natural; what did you do so that you didn’t bow to fear?

Gary: I’m in early morning prayer and I need 1 million dollars in cash within in just like in a month or two I mean this thing was very close in time and I had no money.  And God spoke to me “Go out in the parking lot, face the church,” I looked at this building 4½ million dollar building it is screaming at me.”  God then spoke to my heart.  He then said “Go downtown Wilmington.”  I drive down Wilmington and I look at these high rise buildings and they weren’t saying anything to me. God spoke to my spirit he said “Make that building speak like those building, the other buildings were $52,000,000 buildings.”  So I went back to the building and I command you to bow in the name of Jesus I commanded that fear to come out and loose it’s hold from my life.”  And I got the voice of the building to silence, the next thing that happened was an overwhelming thought of inviting 20 families into my living room.   One of them we were just paying their electric bill the month before, another one I helped bail out of prison because she had been arrested for prostitution.  Another one they had just been in a car accident and had no possibility of getting their food together, we’d been feeding them.  And I went through this 20 people…

Sid: And so this is the group you gathered to get your 4½ million? (Laughing) that’s cuckoo.

Gary:  I mean really you think you’d think you’d invite the people that have the money that had the influence and God said “You select the people I tell you bring them to your living room.”  We all got together in the living room, we started praying, worshiping God and I said “Now I want to tell you why you’re here, God spoke to me that every one of you is going to give $20,000 each into this building project, we’re going to stand up on Sunday make a decree before the church and they’re going to give the other half a million dollars we’re going to make this million dollars manifest in the next 30 days.  They looked at me and the one lady that I help bail out of jail she said “You know what if he didn’t come up with that extra money I wouldn’t have been sitting here today, I’m just going to believe God with him.”  They all agreed just to believe God with me, do you know that within that time all the money manifested.  One of the families that were there gave $80,000 within the 90 days

Sid: How could they do that?

Gary:  They had money by pouring in from all kinds of dimensions I mean out of nowhere.  One person the one that got in the car accident it was just a little fender bender they had hurt their leg, they ended up having a quick insurance settlement for $60,000 because of the bump on the leg, didn’t even get any surgery.

Sid: Hmm.

Gary:   Another person ended up, I don’t know how they got the money they just ended up with $100,000 it was just a floodgate of money poured into people.

Sid: Okay and here’s the thing that you must understand God is not a respecter of person’s He’s a respecter of truth, spiritual truth and it’s time whatever area in your life that you’re not able to get a victory in it’s time to make fear bow.

Sid: I’ve been talking all this week to another Jewish believer in the Messiah Lonnie Lane who happens to be the International Prayer co-Coordinator for Messianic Vision. Of course I come from a traditional Jewish background, and the thing that is so wonderful is God interested and desirous for entire families to come to know Him. In my life, every member of my immediate Jewish family has come to know the Messiah, and in Lonnie Lanes life it is so wonderful. We’ve already found out that Lonnie came to know the Messiah, and Lonnie’s father came to know the Messiah; Lonnie’s brother came to know the Messiah, but what about your mother-in-law. Tell me about her.

Lonnie: Well I started doing Bible studies with my mother and my mother-in-law. I would tell them what the Old Testament had to say about who the Messiah would be, and here’s the fulfillment in the New Testament. We would go through this week after week, but somehow I could never get any closure for either one of them. Then one day my mother was just… it just all fell together for her. She had been afraid that her mother, who she assumed was in heaven was watching her and would be unhappy with her if she came to the Messiah. It was raining cats and dogs the night I got saved with thunder and lightning, and she was sure it was because her mother was angry, and I tried to tell her mother didn’t have that kind of authority or power.

Sid: (Laughing)

Lonnie: Finally it just all went together for her, and she accepted the Lord and got healed of migraine headaches. She’s the one… in fact that night we were supposed to have some Israeli’s for dinner, and I had made a very special dinner, and the Israeli’s cancelled.  I had left everything on the table because I said “Lord you didn’t have me make all this special kosher dinner just for nothing, you knew this would get cancelled. So I’m going to leave it there and see for what reason you had me make this celebration.” That was the day that my mother got saved where we went to an Aglow luncheon. So we had cause for celebration; so we called my mother-in-law, who’d been at the luncheon with us, she came too. When my mother had told she had accepted the Lord because she had left the luncheon early, she said “Oh I’m so jealous.” So I said to her “You can accept the Lord now too” and she said “Well it just doesn’t seem to be my time.” That’s what she kept saying. Finally that Yom Kippur that same year, the Lord told me to call my mother-in-law who was somewhat…

Sid: I love it when you say that Lonnie because I’m reminded of that young Jewish girl who went to her rabbi and said “How come God doesn’t talk to us anymore today?”

Lonnie: Oh He does, oh bless the Lord He does and I thank Him for ears to hear. He told me on this Yom Kippur, it’s a good thing I knew His voice because when you think God is saying to you on Yom Kippur “Call your mother-in-law and take her to the mall for lunch.” You know it’s got to be God because that’s not something you would expect not to do.

Sid: No.

Lonnie: To tell you to go eat first of all, or go to the mall on the holiest day of the year. I obeyed and took my mother-in-law to lunch at the mall, and it was during a conversation there when I said to her “Mom why do you keep saying it’s not my time? What do you think is your time?” She said “Well I’m waiting for my testimony” because I had given tapes and books, and watching things on television, she had been hearing so many just extraordinary testimonies that she was waiting for hers to happen. When I said to her “Well for a Jewish woman to come to see who the Messiah is, is just as extraordinary as any of these other things that you’ve heard.” I said “Do you know who He is?” She said “Oh yeah I know that He is the Messiah” I said “You know He died for your sins?” She said “Oh yes I know that.” So I said “Well you could accept Him right now.” “Oh I didn’t know that” she said, “I can do it now?” I said “Yes” and she took my hand and she said “Lord I’m sorry it took me so long, I didn’t understand would you please come into my heart and fill me with Your Spirit and forgive me for my sins.” She got gloriously saved right there in the mall.

Sid: This is on Yom Kippur?

Lonnie: In the mall on Yom Kippur.

Sid: You know Lonnie we really didn’t finish about your brother Michael. Michael on his birthday came to know the Messiah…

Lonnie: Yes he did.

Sid: What about the fact that he spent all those years in Yoga type meditation, and taking various… well marijuana I know. From what I understand his mind was so destroyed from those years with the guru and everything that he couldn’t even an intelligent sentence.

Lonnie: Well the amazing thing is that when he got saved first he saw some demons that were in his house. He saw them in his dog and we told him “The name of Yeshua has authority over the demons.” When he saw them he told the demon to leave and he actually saw the demon leave, and at that point he also got delivered form the drugs, from marijuana. If tried to put one in his mouth he go too nauseous to be able to do that. At the same time he started reading things like Andrew Murray’s “The Power of the Blood.” He said he understood spiritual dynamics because he had been involved with the other team for several years. Now that he knew who Yeshua was he started praying for people. Somebody with cancer was healed, somebody in a neck brace got to take the brace off. He just got so completely transferred from the dominion of darkness…

Sid: What about his mind?

Lonnie: Well he wound up going to Bible school and getting straight A’s in all the Bible classes. He didn’t do so well in the English and the history, but in everything that had to do with the Bible he got straight A’s. He had not even been able to do well in high school because he had petit mal and the Lord healed that too. So he’s an extraordinary Bible teacher now, and if you ask him where any verse is anywhere in the Bible he knows where it is and where to go. He can just be such a spontaneous teacher of the word.

Sid: You know Lonnie you have a lot to be grateful for.

Lonnie: Oh I do, and I am.

Sid: I have a lot to be grateful for. As your sharing a little bit about Michael I’m thinking about myself. I’m thinking about where I would be today if it wasn’t, not for me, but for God having mercy on me it was that simple.

Lonnie: Amen.

Sid: If He had not had mercy on me, I could tell you I would be in one of three places; I would be in a mental institution, or I would be in prison, or I would dead without knowing the Messiah, meaning eternity separated from God in hell with knowledge of the suffering that is going on. Now none of those three were very good choices. For me I came from a traditional Jewish background; I had a college degree; I got married young, age twenty-nine I decided there had to be something more. In fact I wrote a song by that title in college called “There Must Be Something More.” Not one Christian shared Jesus with me, not one, my entire life up until that point. The only thing I knew about Jesus Lonnie is I read in a book of “Ripley’s Amazing Believe It or Not Facts” that Jesus is Jewish. I got so angry I went to my parents and my mother said “Yes I think Jesus is Jewish.” I mean doesn’t Jesus have a better witness than Mr. Ripley? Anyway, I left my wife, I’m not proud of it; I left my daughter and I went searching for happiness and got involved in the New Age. I’m amazed in the number of Jewish people that are involved in the New Age, and the number of people who call themselves Christians that are involved in the New Age. One Christian man, for the first time a Christian man started witnessing to me. He showed me Deuteronomy 18, and he showed me that every single thing that I, and all the other Jewish people, and I might add nuns and priests, and ministers, we’re all dabbling in was an abomination called spiritual adultery, and people were stoned to death in the days of Moses. Here it’s worse, you have an eternity separated from God. You can’t even turn on TV today without seeing something about the New Age or the occult. So I almost lost my life, I didn’t even want to live. I wanted to commit suicide, I mean life was just too hard. I had so much fear that there was just no purpose in living. Jesus walked into my bedroom; he restored my mind; he restored my family; he reunited me with my wife, and my daughter. Joy and I have celebrated 43 years of marriage now; my daughter now is married with grand-daughters to a Godly man they all know the Messiah. My whole family, my Jewish mother, my Jewish father came to know the Messiah. I mean God is such a good God, and this is God’s moment in history for Jewish people to come to know Him. This is His moment. Lonnie we would be remiss if we didn’t say God loves all people; He loves Jewish people; He loves Gentile people; He loves Muslims; He loves Hindus; He loves all people, but will you love Him? There’s no other name given unto men in heaven and earth in which we must be saved, but the name of Yeshua, the name of Jesus. If you repent of your sins tell God you’re sorry for the sins. What sins have you committed? Lying, stealing, adultery… you name it look at the 10 Commandments, you know them even if they’re not posted in schools. Repent tell God you’re sorry ask for His help to be free and believe Jesus died for your sins, then read your Bible live for Him.

Sid: What would make someone red hot for Messiah?  What about having a granddaughter that has the gift of discernment that at age 4 ½ is caught up into the heavenlies has an encounter with Jesus. Comes back and has the gift of discernment, can see angels, can see demons, knows things that only God could have told her.  I’d say that would make you red hot.  I have the grandparents of Victoria the little girl, and the grandparent’s names are Don and Mary Jo Pennington. I’m speaking to them at their home in Brandon, Florida.  On September 2^nd 2003 there was a swimming party and you had your granddaughter Victoria there in your backyard.  And you live in Florida and you’re having fun and you decide to go on the slide tell me about that.

Mary Jo: Well, as it was unusual for me to want to go up the slide because I had been crippled but the lord had helped me, and I just wanted strong but my knees were well.  But I climbed up very slowly up the ladder to our high sliding board and was standing up on top of it trying to figure out how to sit down and my little granddaughter said Mary Jo can I come up there and sit down with you?  And I said “Sure.”  Well she scampered right straight up behind me and I didn’t know it but I was still struggling to get down, seated on top of the sliding board and suddenly my feet gave way and I fell from 18 or 20 inches up just flat “Bam!” right down on the sliding board.  My body hit my granddaughter and knocked her off backwards as she was hurled about six feet back just from the force of the blow from my body hitting her.  And I screamed oh God I’ve broken my baby and she should have been screaming but she didn’t say anything.

Sid: Now how high above the ground was this?

Mary Jo:  Her head was about 9 feet up.

Sid: So the fall was a 9 foot fall.

Mary Jo:  Yes, it was a 9 foot fall with the force of me you know knocking her as though she’d been hit with a great force.

Sid:  So she should have been dead; no wonder you cried that.

Mary Jo:  Yes.

Sid: You must have had as much horror and fear as a human could have.

Mary Jo:  My heart was actually broken, I was so devastated. I couldn’t stop saying and I couldn’t turn to see her because she was straight behind me.  And then suddenly I could see her over to the side she somehow had come over to my view and all I had to do is look to the side. And I couldn’t take my eyes off of her I thought if I took my eyes off of her she’d break into a million pieces.  But my husband saw what happened would you like for him to tell you what he saw?

Sid: Yes, if you would put Don on the phone right now.

Don: Hello.  

Sid: Hi Don you were watching this going on you had to be as horrified as your wife Ma Jo.

Don: I just gasped I was choking on whatever I was trying to say.   

Sid: And by profession tell me what you do, what your profession is.

Don: I’m an engineer.   

Sid: Okay so you’re a real logical minded type of individual, tell me what you saw with your eyes.

Don: I was in the pool; we had another little boy with us that we were taking care of that day was about 2 years old and I was trying to keep him from being afraid in the water.  And I was standing down in the pool close to where the sliding board is.  And I heard this noise from Mary Jo come out and says “Oh God I’ve broken my baby.”  And I looked up and I saw Victoria just flying backwards off the sliding board.  And she turned; she stretched out backward horizontal with her head going back away from the slide. And then I couldn’t believe what I was seeing it was like I was seeing in slow motion.  And she turned 180 degrees with her feet pointed in the other direction and her head towards the sliding board instead of away from it and she started floating towards the concrete and moved over about 4 feet and she landed about 6 feet away from the sliding board and 4 feet off the side from where she should have fallen if she went straight down which she should have done.

Sid: Now how do you account for her changing positions in the air?

Don:  Well, that’s what my engineering mind couldn’t grab a hold of.  I could see her you know going backwards and maybe moving a little bit but turning in the air I just couldn’t grasp that.  And also she moved off to the side instead of going straight back and straight down; she moved over about four 4 off to the side.

Sid: Okay, in effect she’s 9 feet above the ground; it’s cement I assume on the ground correct?

Don:  Correct.

Sid: Alright, so when someone falls with a force as your wife accidentally hit her backed into her and she falls 9 feet down she should have been history.

Don: That’s right.   

Sid: So you ran to her and what happened?

Don: Well I had to get this little boy I had with me in a safe place and I got to her as quickly…   

Sid: My goodness you are logical I don’t know whether I could have been that rational but go ahead.

Don: But of course I want very rational at that time at all but it was just a matter of seconds because I felt like to get out of the pool and get to her.  And she was trying to get up. and she said “I’m okay grandpa, I’m okay, I’m okay, I’m okay.  But I made her lay still until I check her all over and I started with her head and feeling for or looking for any damage and feeling for any damage and gently down her back and her arms and her legs and they all moved okay.  And I decided that there wasn’t any blood of anything broken or dangling I said “Okay you can get up now.”  And I did and she had two little marks on her, her right elbow had a little scrape on it that didn’t even bleed and a little bit of pink mark on her left hand, on the palm of her hand, you know where it made contact with the…   

Sid: When you realized that she was fine; what were your first thoughts? I mean you went from shock and fear and horror to almost I would think almost unbelief.

Don: Unbelief and then it finally dawned on us that you know we just witnessed a miracle that God had protected her and saved her from great harm.

Sid: Now again is there any way, short of a miracle, that she should have had nothing more than a scratch?

Don: Absolutely not in fact a friend of our family just a few months ago fell off an 8 foot step ladder when he was working on the gutters and it killed him.   

Sid: Hmm. I’ll tell you what if you would put your wife her name is Mary Jo and I guess the family calls her Ma Jo, put Ma Jo back on the telephone.

Don: Okay hold on please.   

Sid: Okay, Ma Jo your husband sees this miracle, the last thing that you’ve said I think you said “I broke my baby.”

Mary Jo:   Yes.

Sid: Now you realize she’s okay what’s going on with you?

Mary Jo:  Well I was still stuck at the top and I couldn’t get down any other way but to slide down into the water and I knew that if she didn’t get right back on it she would be afraid of it all her life so I asked Grandpa to hand her up to me.  And he did and I wrapped my arms around her and we slid down into the water together and then we came in to take shower and I was praising God so loud, so long and thanking Him for saving her life that she finally said “I’m okay Ma Jo alright” she heard enough.  It was enough of that because she was just fine. And then she just didn’t say anything to us, she played with the little boy that was there and the first time that we knew that there was anything different that happened beside this wonderful miracle, that spared her life, was when her Momma called on the way home and checked on her and she said “Momma I’m not broken, Ma Jo knocked me off the slide, but I’m not broken.” And she said, “I heard God yell, save the children catch Victoria and then 6 big, big, big angles caught me and zoom they took me right up to heaven.

Sid: And remember Mispochah she’s 4 ½ years old now and she’s…this was a few years ago she’s 7 today, but this is like a book of Acts type of an experience. Did she tell you much more that occurred?

Mary Jo: Well, her mother was just speechless and she took the phone she said, “Give the phone back to Ma Jo” and she said “Did you hear that?” I said “Yes, I heard it but she hadn’t said anything about it all day.” And we were just so stunned she couldn’t think of a thing to say and hung up, the mother did so I turned around to Victoria and start asking real smart questions “Like how big were the angels?” You know I was just too stunned to ask intelligent questions.  And she told us how big they were and that when they held her hand with their warm hands they were this wide like 10 – 12 inches wide that her hand glowed too.  It made her…when she held them, when they held her they made her shine like a light bulb the glory of them emanated out through her she could see her body in her hands shinning.   

Sid: Now you realize as your sharing right now there is such a presence of God on the words that you’re speaking that although I don’t have the gift of discernment to see I feel the presence of God over what you’re saying. I have a book in my hand it called “Six Big, Big, Big Angels” of which you wrote and these were based on tape recordings of all the visitations and experiences that your Granddaughter Victoria had in this experience and many other experiences.  Why did you write this book?

Mary Jo:  Well, we had to write it the Lord spoke to us and told us to write it, write down everything. One minister that we tried to share a little bit said “Write down every word she says.” And as we gathered all this material and I transcribed it from the tapes God spoke to me and I had to get it into book form because there’s so many people that need to know what she saw once she got to Heaven.

Sid: You know I’m going to read a comment on the book by Wayne Anderson; he’s from the International Apostolic Ministries and he said quote “The first time that I told Victoria’s story several people reportedly began to have open visions of Heaven and some of those visions went on for days.”  Are you getting supernatural reports like this from the book from other people?

Mary Jo:  Well the book is brand new it hasn’t been out long, but two different people have called that they see a supernatural purple glow between the pages as they turn the pages and they feel the presence of the Holy Spirit as they read it.

Sid: Well, I can tell you that as I read the book and as I talk to you there is an awesome presence of God.  There’s some, listen would you like to see Heaven from a child’s perspective?

Sid:  I am so tired of the Messiah, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob being represented by people think that their relationship with God is based on 1 or 2 or 3 hours on a Saturday, 1 or 2 or 3 hours on a Sunday.  They don’t understand He’s either Lord of all, or He’s not Lord at all. You have been conned thinking that the purpose in life is to segment have your life and have a nice balanced life. You are out of balance, you are abnormal unless Jesus is Lord of everything. Unless you have intimacy with God don’t settle for counterfeit religion, settle for intimacy with the living God. Recognize that there is a call of God on your life and He has a purpose and a destiny that no one will do better than you. He has not rejected you no matter how many bad things you’ve done called sin. If you repent, turn from your sins, He is just and faithful to forgive you of all unrighteousness. Now I have on the telephone Ayelet and Sean Steckbeck from Jerusalem, Israel. They’re in the United States, and if you understand what happened to Ayelet, if you understand a visitation that she had, that is the type of thing that is going on with Jewish people worldwide right now. God has created you, in other words, many of you are crying out to God saying “God what is my destiny? God what is my purpose?” Well if you won’t do what is in writing in the New Covenant, why should you hear a prophetic word? This is what the New Covenant says, it says in Romans 11:11 “Salvation has come to the Gentile to provoke the Jew to jealousy.” Now on yesterday’s broadcast we found out, and I’ll recap for you. Ayelet was raised on an atheistic kibbutz, that’s a communal situation in Israel, but she always knew there was a God. She always talked to God, she always prayed to God, then her brother died in the war. When she went into the army she had all these emotions. She became suicidal, literally she had a God visitation, and she saw what were to happen if she killed herself. So she said “I’ve got to find out more about this God.” So she went to the only option she thought was available at the time, and that was Orthodox Judaism. She literally joined a school of higher education called a Yeshiva for women, for Orthodox women. It was at that Yeshiva she heard there was Messiah, so she started praying every day for the Messiah to live inside of her. Low and behold she had another God visitation, she still didn’t know who Jesus was, and she started going to a meeting of believers. She had a tape of a prophecy she brought to the Yeshiva, but it had the name of Jesus. She tried to erase it, but just would not erase. Then 2 of her friends who were believers started talking to her, and one of her friends gave her a New Testament. Ayelet what did you do with this New Testament?

Ayelet:  I decided to take and read it, and I took it to the dorms, I hid it. When everybody left I started reading. I was just really amazed to see who Yeshua really was. I fell in love with Him. The most amazing for me was that I had so many questions that I stopped asking the rabbis because they didn’t really know what to do with my questions, and Yeshua had an answer for every question that I had.

Sid:  Now was He answering you in your spirit, or just by reading?

Ayelet:  In the Bible, in the New Testament. What He taught and is teaching in the New Testament on the sermon on the mountain, or different other teachings or parables that He taught, were just answers for a lot of questions that I had.

Sid:  Just before Yom Kippur in Israel, your friend said something that was startling to you that Jesus was your Yom Kippur. What did that mean to you.

Ayelet:  [Laughing] That really confused me because as an Israeli Yom Kippur is such a big thing. How can someone be Yom Kippur, I really didn’t understand, but I wanted to know from God I didn’t want to miss it if it was something from God. So I was praying and I was asking God if I was supposed to do Yom Kippur. Every time I asked Him, and I probably asked like 53 times, every time I asked the Bible opened up to Isaiah 53. It was the first time I read that scripture, but I understand that it was about Yeshua. I didn’t understand all of it, but I understood if He was the atonement then I don’t need to fast to receive atonement.

Sid:  But even though you understood He was the atonement, you still felt Yeshua was hidden from you. What did you mean by that?

Ayelet:  I felt that He was hidden because in Israel we don’t hear about Him, and if we hear it’s usually negative. So I practically knew nothing about who He was, what He did. I wasn’t given the chance to check it for myself; if I believed in it, if I wanted it.

Sid:  But you began crying out to Him.

Ayelet:  Yes.

Sid:  Then you went through a mikvah, which Christians call a baptism. Why did you do that?

Ayelet:  Well it was Yom Kippur and the community I was with it was a tradition for the single girls to go to the mikvah on Yom Kippur day. So I went that day.

Sid:  When you went under the waters what came out of your mouth?

Ayelet:  It just came out “In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”

Sid:  Who told you to say that?

Ayelet:  One of my friends said, one of the believing friends, said to do that. I told her “No way!” [Laughing] But when I was under the water it just happened.

Sid:  Did anyone hear you?

Ayelet:  No. [Laughing]

Sid:  [Laughing] So then, you’re still are not 100% convinced, but you go to a prayer meeting and you had an unexpected visitor.

Ayelet:  Yes. I went again to Ruth Heflin’s prayer house and it was already on Yom Kippur, and in the prayer I just saw Yeshua. He just came and He stretched His arms and He said “Welcome.” No one led me in a sinners prayer, years later I heard someone do it so I just covered it just in case, but in that moment that’s how He received me, and that’s how I received Him into my heart as my Messiah.

Sid:  And then you came to the United States and you went to a revival that I went to many times in Brownsville. It was one of the biggest revival meetings in modern day history. Why did you go there?

Ayelet:  Well I got saved in 96, and through these few years I went to America for a few revival places that I knew. I was just very hungry for the Holy Spirit for God to move in my life. That year in 2000 I came to the Brownsville church in Pensacola that I heard a lot of, and I just wanted a touch from God.

Sid:  You went to their prayer meeting, and I led their prayer meeting once or twice. I loved what was going on there. They had all the different flags and you pray for the countries, and you saw the flag of Israel, but there was someone there that night, and I have him on the phone who later became your husband, that’s Sean. Is it true that you heard an audible voice that Sean would be your husband?

Ayelet:  Yeah I did, but not that night though.  That night I didn’t notice him, I was praying, they asked me to pray in Hebrew.

Sid:  Well Sean did you notice her?

Sean:  Oh yeah.

Sean and Ayelet: [Laughing]

Sid:  Well you had a call of God to go to Israel, you’re not a believer but you’ve been a believer a great deal of your life. So you did notice her. How did the two of you get together?

Sean:  Well when I saw her at the prayer that day, you know I wasn’t really interested dating you know. Ayelet my wife was my first kiss just to tell you I had been going after God my whole life. You know I wanted to be on the mission field my whole life. I was going to the Brownsville Revival School of Ministry, which it doesn’t exist anymore, but at that time it did. When I was… I was a server at a restaurant there and I was serving, and an older lady came up to me and, I didn’t know her at all. She came up to me and she says “I don’t know you, but I was on a 40 day fast, and the Lord told me to come… I was driving  past this restaurant and the Lord told me to stop my car, come into this restaurant and I would meet a young man in here called to Israel.” She said she argued with the Lord for a while because…

Sid:  I’ll tell you what, hold that thought we’ll pick up right here on tomorrow’s broadcast.

SID: Hello. Sid Roth here with the Kylstras, and I know you came back. Tell me the keys that God has revealed to you.

CHESTER: It simple just like you said. But, and these four keys are already known, Sid. But what He showed us is they need to be dealt together. It’s almost like putting all four keys in the locks at the same time.

SID: Like’s it’s integrated would be the word.

CHESTER: That’s the word we use. Integrated, interrelated. So the first one is very simple. It comes out of the second commandment where we pick up our family stuff. It just gets passed down through the generations until someone takes it to the cross. So I entered into the family sins of my family.

SID: You know, you made a statement that God, when He looks at us, and it’s very profound, He doesn’t look at us, He looks at our whole family line. I’ve never thought about that before.

CHESTER: That’s right. Well He’s the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Right?

SID: Right.

CHESTER: He’s the family father of our family line also. So anyway, that sets us up. We enter in the sins of our fathers. We don’t have to, but we all do that. And then out of that we grow up in families. And we found out that all of us think our families are normal. But the reality is that they’re all dysfunctional, normally dysfunctional. How about that. Some a lot, some a little.

SID: Well with me, that’s an understatement, Chester. How about you guys? How about you?

CHESTER: Normally dysfunctional. So we get wounds to our heart. That’s why Jesus said, “I came to heal the broken hearted.” And we sin out of those wounds. People touch our tender points. But then out of those wounds we’ve learned the human mind is always trying to make sense out of what’s going on around us and what’s happening to us. And so most of the time we make sense by coming to the conclusion, there must be something the matter with me or these things wouldn’t be happening to me. And so we buy ungodly beliefs, which is what we like call the lies we believe. Because my dad died and left me there must be something out of me and important people will leave. So the safe way to deal with that was to avoid other people. And we could go on with lots more. So these are lies based on God’s Word. God doesn’t say I’m a loner. He doesn’t say important people are going to leave. He just says I’m His dearly beloved. That was a huge revelation.

SID: So you replace the lie with the truth.

CHESTER: Yes.

SID: The truth is God’s promise.

CHESTER: And will set you free. And God has given us a very good process to go through to deal with converting lies into His truth. So those three areas, ancestral sins, the lies we believe, the hurts of our heart, all provide legal access to the demonic oppression. Some of them come down the family line. We open up the doors ourselves and invite them in. And so the devil does his job, which is to steal, kill and destroy, until we learn to not let him do that anymore, until we learn to begin to shut those doors. God gave Betsy a key vision one time as we were looking at these four areas.

BETSY: I was locking up the house to go on a vacation and there were four doors. And so as I was locking each one, the Lord said, “Why are you locking those doors?” And I said, “Because there are precious things inside I don’t want stolen.” And He said, “It’s just like locking four ministry doors, the doors of the four ministry areas. If you close and lock them then the enemy won’t be able to come in and steal the precious things that are inside.”

SID: Chester said, when you close those three doors the demonic doesn’t even want to stay, and it’s so easy to get free. It’s not a big deal.

CHESTER: That’s true. We find deliverance in restoring the foundations of ministry. It’s almost a non-event. Let’s say boring. And we’ve all heard stories of deliverance from the old days where people get bounced off the walls and stuff. It’s because they did not take back the legal rights that the first three areas provide. And each one is related to the other three. Because the demons, they keep all this going on down the family line.

SID: Okay. Give me an example of the generational family line that someone could be dealing with today.

CHESTER: Well alcoholism is very common. So there’s an addiction issue, but also probably some major abandonment, victimization, things such as that. So that would be the ancestral sins and curses. So the child grows up, let’s say in an alcoholic family, probably makes a vowed judgment against his parents, whichever one is the alcoholic, I will never be like that. So then they set themselves up to reap what they’ve just vowed. Or I won’t treat my children that way. I’m not going to holler, yell or scream, and they find themselves, years later, hollering, yelling and screaming at their children, and hating it at the very same time they’re doing it. And why am I doing this? So ancestral sins are at work there. They enter into him and made them their own.

SID: Alright Betsy, tell me about an ungodly belief that you had.

BETSY: Well I had an ungodly belief that I was just always going to be left out. And what I found out later is the enemy has a strategy to reinforce an ungodly belief, setting up situations over and over, and over to reinforce the power of that. So I had that ungodly belief, I’m a mistake, I’ll be left out.

SID: And Chester, tell me what was the biggest soul wound you had.

CHESTER: Well I guess it was the abandonment by my father. Of course, he didn’t intend to abandon me.

SID: But you didn’t know that. That’s the problem.

CHESTER: A two-year-old doesn’t figure these things out. We just live it. But I expected to be abandoned by everybody else. That was the ungodly believe I got. So I found myself being abandoned lots of times. And abandonment can take a lot of different forms. It can be, you know, as I said—

SID: You known what I’m reminded of? As a man thinks in his heart, so is he. Chester thought he would be abandoned. Betsy had this terrific fear of death. Do you have a fear of death now?

BETSY: No sir.

SID: I can tell. That’s with an attitude.

BETSY: Jumping across the table.

SID: Okay. I’m going to turn them loose in the next segment to pray for you? You want them to? I thought so. I thought so.

Sid:  Well, my guest does the same works and I don’t know if I would call it greater but there’s some outrageous miracles that I don’t even read about in the Bible that happens under her ministry.  Her name, Marilyn Hickey; now Marilyn you’ve been speaking in mosques, and meetings, healing meetings all over the world especially you have a burden for Muslims you love Muslims.  But just out of curiosity how does this work in the United States, any success?

Marilyn: Great success, great success it’s the same thing it’s the demonstration of the Name of Jesus and of His Word because Muslims, and you know there’s Sunni’s, Sufi’s, Shiite, all of them believe that Jesus heals, it’s in their Quran.  Now what I like to do is get in where there’s a group of Muslims and have a demonstration.  So I thought in the history of Islam 1400 years a woman, a Christian woman, has never spoken in a mosque. I began to have a passion to have this happen and pray about it.  Well, Dearborn is where they have the most Muslims in the United States, they have 250,000 most of them are from Iraq and Iran.  And God gave me favor with an imam that’s the leader of a mosque; I went to see him, I got an audience with him first of all which is a miracle and told him what I wanted to do and he had a board member there.  He said, “We would never do that, I said, “I’d like to have a healing meeting in the mosque and I’d like…

Sid: Marilyn we have a Hebrew word for that, it’s called “Chutzpah, it’s called nerve.” Marilyn Hickey you have Chutzpah.

Marilyn: Oh, thank you so he said, “Well, we would never do that.”  And you know I just hold on to your faith, and I thought Lord this game is not over till I win.” You know 2^nd Corinthians 14 “He always leads us to triumph in Christ.”  So when I got up to leave he said, “Marilyn, the next time you’re here I’d like for you to come to our house, my wife and I would like to have you for dinner” and I knew there’s a crack in the door.  And so about 8 months later I went and had dinner with them and he said to me “What is it you want to do in the mosque?”  And I told him and he said, “Well, I believe we can do that.”  I said, “Would you be willing for me to put this on my television program and I will show you the DVD I wouldn’t do anything you’re uncomfortable with, you’re my friend.”  He said, “Yes!”  So we had a healing meeting in a mosque, wasn’t a big meeting, but dramatic miracles.

Sid: Tell me one.  Well, I’ll tell you about a little boy who did the reading of the Koran at the beginning and he couldn’t see well, had a big problem with his sight and God healed his sight and he came up and testified.  We had quite a few people healed of back problems and then we had refreshment afterwards and we had 11 Imam’s plus it wasn’t a big crowd but all of these Islamic people and so I went from table to table and you know I dressed like they dressed, I had my head covered. I would pray and they’ll say to you “Pray for my mother she’s sick or pray for me I’ve hurt my arm, or I have arthritis.”  And so I went from table to table; that gave me a lot of favor and then the Imam did a tapping with me and we became very good friends, his wife couldn’t have children, hadn’t been able to get pregnant, and now she has two, we prayed for her.  So that door has opened another door for me in Jakarta to go and have a healing meeting in a mosque.  But listen Sid, this is my passion, I want to go to Iran, there’s never been a healing in the history of Iran.  I want to have it in a university as a cultural exchange.

Sid: Now the thing that most people don’t understand is when there are miracles you say it’s because Jesus is healing you and you literally, this is hard for me to comprehend I mean it blows everyone’s paradigm, you have people at these meetings pray to know Jesus to be born again.

Marilyn: Yes, I didn’t in the mosque but I do in all of my healing meetings.  I didn’t do it in the mosque, I felt I was restricted from that. The big meeting January with 210,000 people I had people stand up to invite Jesus into their hearts.  And I won’t tell we had a sneaky way for follow-up so God is cool, He knows and I believe everyone listening to this program God has a miracle with your name on it.  You know He doesn’t just show up and show off in Islamic countries, He shows up and shows off where ever there’s faith.  Sid, I’d like to pray for healing miracles right now.

Sid: Please.

Marilyn: Lord, I just thank you for every person whose listening to this broadcast, who needs a healing miracle; I send the Word into their bodies that heals them and delivers them from this destruction.  Jesus we have the double cure, You take care of our inner man you take our sins and You take our sicknesses.  We take that wonderful glorious provision, and I thank you that people from all around are getting a miracle now and will contact Sid and say “Jesus, did this,” thank you Father in Jesus Name, Amen.

Sid: Marilyn I want to say something, and you are amazing, we did this radio broadcast much earlier than people are hearing right now, and the day before we did the broadcast you had this ceremony for your husband’s homecoming; how can you do this broadcast right now?

Marilyn: Because He’s in Heaven, you know we didn’t have a funeral, we had a celebration.  We had 1100 people and they would tell you we had a party, that’s what he wanted and he put on a video tape 2 ½ years ago an altar call for salvation, and we played it in the celebration.  You know I can’t, how can I say it, I can’t carry the grief and the sorrow because Jesus took it for me and honestly I don’t have the grief and sorrow; I’m so thrilled he is in Heaven; I’m so thrilled with the people who stood for salvation last night.  I’m so thrilled we prayed for the sick last night, for the people who are healed, that’s what Jesus would want and here Wally says on a video “Dear ones I’m in Heaven, but I’ve made this video before because my biggest collection is souls and I want yours to be here.”

Sid: Let me take you back to when you were 23 years of age, you went to went to church because there was a man you liked by the name of Wally you weren’t married at the time, and so you only went to that church for that reason. One day this fellow Wally says to you “I’m fasting and praying for you.”  Tell me briefly that story.

Marilyn: (Laughing) Well, I was very insulted because he said, “I’m fasting and praying for you.”  And I said, “Well, I’m saved.”  But he said, “But you’re not committed” and he said, “I served the devil with all my heart and now I’m going to serve God with all my heart and I’m not going to marry a woman who’s halfhearted.”  So he said, “I’m on a fast for three days and in that timing God spoke to me in the night and said, “I’ve dealt with you for four years for the baptism of the Holy Spirit and you say no and I’m not going to deal with you anymore, but I’ll show you if your turn this down at this time the baptism of the Holy Spirit you will move to California, you will marry a Christian, you’ll have a good life, you’ll die and go to Heaven; but He said, I have something so wonderful for you, you cannot imagine.”  And I totally surrendered for the power of the Holy Spirit and that was the beginning.  We married as you can guess.

Sid: Well, you know the operative word that you just spoke out of your mouth is what God is dealing with people listening to us right now.  Marilyn said she could have surrendered or she could have done it her way, she could have had a nice normal life or she could have fulfilled her destiny.  And some of you are saying “Well, I did miss it along the way.” I am saying with great confidence that God says He can redeem the time where you are right now, look what He did Jesus did in just 3 years, surrender, that’s His message for you right now.  Surrender to the Lord; you know how to do it, your words, repent of your sins, get a fresh start, make Him your Lord, read the Bible, mediate with us every day on a new scripture.  Marilyn let’s say were saying the same scripture all week, John 8:12 please say that quickly.

Marilyn: I am the light of the world, he that follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life,” wonderful light.

Sid: Before I started this interview I told Misty Edwards she provokes me to jealousy because I am, well my wife’s not here so I can say it.  I am proud when I get an hour’s worth of praying in tongues and worship in every day.  Misty the people out at IHOP that’s your lifestyle that’s your oxygen.  Tell me what your average day consists of in reference to prayer and worship.

Misty: Oh, well my average day inference to prayer and worship would be I usually lead one prayer meeting a day so that’s about a two hour period of time where I’m you know at the keyboard leading in worship and prayer.  Then I have another two hour block where I am in the prayer room with my Bible opened just praying in the Spirit; praying around the Psalms or whatever passage the Lord has going down my prayer list.  So about four hours a day I aim to be in the prayer room. I’m not saying all that’s you know deeply connected but at least my heart’s in front of the fire.

Sid: But you know I got saved at thirty; I didn’t as the Bible says I didn’t know my left hand from my right hand spiritually until I was 30 years of age. But at 5 you became a believer and the thing that intrigues me so much is that you had a strong sense of eternity. You knew life was short; how does a 5 year old even fathom those thoughts?

Misty: Oh, I mean I remember from being… some of my earliest memories are just sitting on my swings set trying to grasp forever.  You know I would be like “Forever, forever, forever, forever, mom how long is forever?”  And just that feeling of we’re never going to end and yet everybody dies.  You know my great grandmother passed away when I was very young and so I just had this awakening of that…we were all going to die and I just had a real sense of the fragility of life and the speed of which it was going.  Which I mean it just propelled me…

Sid: But how does a 5 year old have that sense?  But let me tell you my story, when I was about 5 my parents participated in athletics their sport of choice was poker.  And they were playing poker all night long.  And I’m a 5 year old sitting in the bed and the thought popped in my head “What happens when you die?”  I mean I don’t know where it came from, now I know it came from God and I pondered it and my conclusion was as a 5 year old “You cease to exist.” But your conclusion was right.

Misty: Well, I had godly parents for one thing and so when I asked my Mom “How long is forever and what happens when we die?”  She did give me an answer that satisfied me. I was very young when I came to know the Lord although I still had a sense of still  searching even after I’d said the sinners prayer, I still had a sense of “But why am I here?” I knew where I was going when I died but I couldn’t figure out why I existed, you know what was the purpose on this side of time.  See I think that that cry is in the heart of every 5, 6, 7 year old that’s the age where those thoughts and those longings are awakened in the human heart.

Sid: Okay, age 19 you go out to Kansas City to Bible School. Mike Bickel’s has a class on Song of Solomon.

Misty: Yes.

Sid: That had a major impact on you, explain.

Misty: It had a major impact of me, I was raised in a very loving family with a focus on holiness and character.  I felt the love of God on and off throughout my life, but in this Song of Solomon class Mike was really touching on the longings of the human heart, you know the longing for greatness, the longing for purpose, the longing for destiny, the longing for beauty to be enjoyed.  You know the basic longings of all humans in every culture that we have. He says that “In God we find the answers to these longings that He is the fountain of desire.”  And through the Song of Solomon and through the bridal paradigm as Mike calls it knowing Jesus as a Bride Groom with burning desire instead of just a master with a checklist totally changed my paradigm of God.  And my desire to respond to Him in the same kind of wholeheartedness that He was pursuing me and it radically changed my view of God which changed my worldview, which changed the view of myself.  I mean it transformed me radically.

Sid: Now with all of that prayer and all of those studies and all of the things that a 19 year old is involved in in life, you still managed to sneak away to the laundry room to get away so that you could seek God.

Misty: Yeah, and at that time you know I was working at a daycare center, I was a preschool teacher, this was a year before the House of Prayer had started; I was in Bible school but that class had awakened such a hunger in my heart. And I was saying “God if this is real,” like I’m kind of the kind of person that doesn’t get convinced easily. And so I like the feeling of hearing what Mike was saying but I kept saying “Is this real I have to know for myself.” So I would take the notes, I would take my Bible that little Song Solomon commentary and go into my little dirty apartment laundry mat and just say look at the stars and go “If You are there God and You hear me is this real; do You really feel this way about human beings, are you watching me right now?” And so it was almost a desperate cry at the same time of feeling His presence, it was a funny mixture of desperation and presence at the same time.

Sid: Now you wrote a song called “Doves Eyes.” Tell me about that.

Misty: Yeah.

Sid: Tell me about that.

Misty: “Doves Eyes” is out of the book of Song of Solomon.  The Bridegroom He says to the Shulamite that you have dove’s eyes.”  And what I believe that speaks of is a single vision, that you have focus; that you can’t…a dove cannot turn their eyes in either direction their fixed.  And so when the Bridegroom says to us “You have Dove’s Eyes.” He’s saying I see in you the sincerity to be mine even in our weakness.  You know I certainly have failed many, many times over the last fourteen years since I was 19.  I’ve failed many many times, but at the core of me He says “You have dove’s eyes.”  He say “I know you want me, I know your pursuing me just keep coming if you don’t quit you’ll win.”  And so to hear Him say that over my heart gives me courage when I do fail to run to Him instead of away from Him.

Sid: Let’s hear “Dove’s Eyes.” Excerpt: Misty Edwards sings (“Dove’s Eyes”)

Sid: Misty what’s going on inside of you, what’s exploding when you sing that song to God?

Misty: When I sing that song to God I hear Him singing that song to me.  When He looks at me and says “You do have dove’s eyes.”  And I feel so distracted and I have so many things going on in my life and my own failure, my own sin keeps me from going to the degree that I want to go in wholeheartedness.   But when He whispers to my heart “I see the sincerity of your heart I know that you love Me, keep coming to Me.”  It is the power that has kept me from quitting over the last decade in my life.  It is the power that motivates me knowing that He sees the sincerity of my heart, it’s revolutionary.

Sid: Although it’s revolutionary I have this question for you.  What keeps you powered to be so hungry for God after all these years?  Doesn’t it become routine to you?

Misty: Yeah, that’s a great question and it’s a question I asked myself often there are times especially in a culture of prayer where it can become very routine you know it becomes like a machine.  We know how to make it work and so I have to be really honest with myself and honest before God, and whenever I feel like my heart is getting cold and I’m just going through the motions I hear that verse in Revelation “That you have a name that your alive but you left your first love.”  And I’ve heard that a few times the Spirit has whispered that to my heart over the years. And I come to Him with repentance and I say “Lord, you wanted my heart from the beginning you didn’t want just me to show up in a prayer room every day that’s not even the point; the point is you want my heart. So I think it’s perpetual returning at the heart level connecting with the Holy Spirit.  And keeping that as my primary vision; my primary dream to go deep in His word and to go deep in the Spirit when I realign my mind and my heart over and over again.  I find that I have to sign back up you know regularly though.

Sid: You know when people hear you sing it’s literally the hunger for God the hunger for the presence of God it’s in your spiritual DNA and it comes out…

Sid: My guest Cris Putnam coauthor of the bestselling book “Petrus Romanus” the last Pope.  Cris on this Friday broadcast I want you to use what you know from having studied the documents in the Catholic Church and interviewing many people in the Catholic hierarchy what you know about scripture, and of course you are theologian, in your sanctified imagination paint me a picture of what we can expect from the last Pope.

Cris: Well, Sid what I’ve uncovered is some particularly disturbing theological constructs that have been adopted within Roman Catholicism.  It really goes back to the work of a Jesuit named Pierre Teilhard de Chardin.  Chardin was a paleontologist that operated… he really discovered evidence for evolution and Darwinism in the early 20^th century. During his time he was widely considered a heretic in Catholic circles.  Now why do people think that Pope Benedict the 16^th he gets described as a conservative in the media and that’s because of his stances on things like abortion and same sex marriage.  And yes he takes conservative stances on those sorts of issues that I found some really startling statements that he’s really adopted Chardin’s concept of evolution.  Chardin kind of pioneered this really mystical system of Darwinism and you know the whole idea of aliens and beliefs in extraterrestrials living on other planets this whole idea of astrobiology it’s really phenomenally founded on a world view that says that life is really not special that it just sort of evolves when the conditions are right.  If you have water and a planet a certain distance from its star with the temperatures are helpful then life will just kind of pop into being.  And because of this they postulate that there’s millions of planets out there, there’s really no reason to assume that the earth is special so we should think that life has to appear all over the place.  And this is the world view that drives modern astronomy and astrobiology; the modern Jesuits have widely accepted this world view and these tenets of the earth being a mediocre planet amongst many.  Now given these world view issues it’s kind of astounding that when I hear people saying that Pope Benedict is you know conservative because he wholeheartedly endorsed this Darwinistic worldview where man is just an evolved prime-mate and you know that extraterrestrials are inevitable culinary to that worldview.  Now with that in mind a lot of things that they write start to come into focus; some of their retrospective theologians Giuseppe Tanzella Nitti who is a member of Opus Dei, and a professor of theology at the University of Holy Cross at Rome.  Has actually written quite a bit on what they call exo-theology.  Now he’s talking about unexpected information of a religious character from extraterrestrial civilizations.  Now what he recommends is that we have to submit this new religious contact coming outside of the earth to analysis of reasonableness.  And once that trustworthiness of this information has been verified then we should try to reconcile the new information with the truth that we already know or believe on the basis of revelation of One True God.  Conducting, this is his words, “A rereading inclusive of the new data similar to that of that would be applied in ordinary religious dialogue.”  So he’s saying that we should reread the revelation that we’ve been given in light of this new data from extraterrestrials.  Now this is their own writings and so it seems like they are anticipating this and have laid the foundation for it.  Now the thing that I find deeply troubling about that is that you know that the track record of them rereading revelation and inter-religious dialogue is already pretty dismal.

Sid: So when you’re saying rereading are you saying reinterpreting it and totally changing the gospel.  Is that what you’re implying?

Cris:  Yeah I think that that is the danger, I think that is what we are looking at and you know the thesis that Tom Horn and I are advocating is that we don’t believe in extraterrestrials.  I mean just to be really honest the Bible doesn’t say one way or the other, BUT it doesn’t give me the impression…you know the Bible has a Philosophy of history you know it tells us that God has a plan for the earth and that the earth is central in His plan.  It tells us that angels long to look into these things.  You know the earth and humanity are a central focus of what we read in scripture.

Sid: Okay if you don’t believe in extraterrestrials what do you believe in?  Do you believe that there will be demons that will pose in that position; is that what you believe?

Cris: That’s absolutely what my thesis is because I don’t see anything in scripture about advanced-extraterrestrials coming down here to help us evolve which is the message that we get from the people that claim to have contact with these things.  But I do see a lot in scripture about a strong delusion a…

Sid: Okay paint me a picture of what this strong delusion could look like in the next few minutes.

Cris: Well, it could happen in several ways, it could be as obvious as a huge UFO appearing over a major city and you know these beings communicating to us that they’re here to save us, that they are the creators. I mean this idea of panspermia that life on earth originated from space is actually very popular within scientific circles.  It could be something as subtle as that it doesn’t have to be a huge UFO over the cities I mean that’s what we expect from the movies.  But it could something as subtle as scientific evidence saying that we were created off earth, or that aliens seeded life on earth; it could be something as subtle as that.  I suspect that it will be somewhere in the middle I kind of think that we will see some sort of entity claiming to be an extraterrestrial; now that’s my speculation. And I think part of that message would be something along the lines of panspermia, and panspermia is the idea that life on earth was seeded from space.

Sid: You know everything that you’re saying to me leads me to one specific scripture which I’ve stated before as I’ve interviewed you and your coauthor and that is 2^nd Thessalonians chapter 2 verse 11. “And for this reason God will send them strong delusion that they should believe the lie.”  If they’re not going to believe the truth God says “We’re going to believe the lie.” Everything you tell me has that scripture just shouting at me.  What do you think about that?

Cris: Yeah, I think that that scripture has a lot of explanatory script.  I think about the way people have been led away from believing in God as creator that you know that this disillusion is going to be clothed in the language of science.  And the sort of thing that people with this naturalistic scientific world view are prime to accept in something like this, something like an extraterrestrial; because it seems to have scientific creditability.

Sid: And another ear mark of the last days is men’s… men are going to be so fearful on what’s coming on the earth.  This all ties in with all the documentation you have accumulated.

Cris:  Yeah, you know when Jesus used that language you know of what is coming of the earth, that seems to be implying something that is seen an extraterrestrial or something not of this earth for it not to come on the earth it must originate from somewhere else.

Sid: I don’t know if you’ve read that best seller “Petrus Romanus the Final Pope is Here,” but I have one of the authors of the book Cris Putnam on the telephone.  If you haven’t heard about the Malachi prophecy just briefly Cris I want you to explain it but for those that aren’t familiar with you, you are a theologian and in particular in grad school.  You studied the history of Catholic and Protestant reformers and this is all been amazing foundation for you because yes your taking prophecies but you’ve also having such a such strong foundation in the word that it gives the perspective that everyone needs. Tell us a bit about the Malachi prophecy.

Cris: Sid it’s great to be on the show with you what we have on this St. Malachi of the Popes is an allegedly a 900 year old prophecy by an Irish Saint.  The way that the account goes St. Malachi had made a pilgrimage to Rome to have an audience with the Pope.  Now on Genicom Hill one of the hills outside of Rome he had a vision from his day 112 Popes into the future with the final Pope reigning during the tribulation.  So the way this vision came across the way he recorded it is a series or Latin phrases of mottoes which seem to predict something about each Pope perhaps a description of his Coat of Arms, or something about his name, or perhaps events that happened during his papacy. So we have this sequence of 112 mottoes.  Now the thing that makes this all very intriguing is that Pope Benedict was 111 out of one 112 meaning that this very next Pope…the prediction for him seems to really strongly infer the end-times.  It says in the extreme persecution of the Holy Roman Church there will sit Peter the Roman who will nourish the sheep in tribulation; when they’re finished the city of Seven Hills will be destroyed and the dreadful judgment will judge his people, the end.  So that is what this 900 year old prophecy predicts to happen during the reign of the next Pope.

Sid: Now how did you know because he didn’t say this, or did, he St. Malachi, how did you know that the Pope would resign so that there would be room for this last Pope?

Cris: Well Sid you know one of the things I learned you know in seminary that you know when you’re digging into a subject like this you know you go out and you read everything that you can find about it.  And you know I’m a Protestant I’m not necessarily predisposed to believing extra Biblical Catholic prophecies, but you know I wanted to give this thing a fair shake.  And one of the books that I read about it and had to translate from French was by a Belgium Jesuit named Renee Tebow, now actually he published this book in 1951. He did all sorts of mystical calculations from the Latin text of this prophecy and he came up with April 2012 as the date of the arrival of the final Pope. Now he didn’t just do that in a trivial way he actually did it from 5 or 6 different calculations.  One of the simplest ones was that he calculated the average reign where a Pope would be in office for 11 years.  That’s what he determined was the average and he just kind of extrapolated that forward from when he was writing in 1950 and he came up with the year 2012. Now of course that was very sensational with all the apocalyptic speculation about the year 2012. You know we put it in out book and there was also some rumors circulating around about Benedict’s health. So we kind of went out on a limb based on his writing and these rumors, and you know we put on pages 57 – 58 of our book that thought that he would step down for health reason.  Well 2012 came and went we were a little bit disappointed and you know figured that just wasn’t going to happen the way Father Tebow said.  But it turns out when I was reading the New York Times on February 11^th this year about Benedict’s stepping down it actually says that the decision was made in end of March after his trip to South America and “Kept with a reserve that no one could violate” so quite literally he made the decision to step down right when this was predicted and then kept it a secret all year.

Sid: Okay from looking at your book you are very honest and you’ve done good journalism in that a few of the prophecies the Pope’s might have been tampered with but just a few.  However the majority, of recent years of course, it was from the original prophecy how accurate was it in your opinion as a Biblical scholar?

Cris:  You know one of the things that I looked at you know is that this thing was published and widely spread across the continent of Europe about 1595 in a book called “Lignum Vitae” so no matter what people might say about it being a forgery or written after the face you really can’t argue about the prophecies after 1595 because no one disputes that it was in print at that time.  Now when you’re testing something like this the way you test the hypothesis in science is you try to falsify it you look for a risky prediction.  And one of the ones that really jumped out at me was Religio-Depopulata. Now in the sequence of the Malachi prophecy that was the prophecy that matched Pope Benedict 15th. Now he was Pope from 1914 to 1922 and that prophecy actually in England was to be Religion-Depopulated.  Now that is a very risky prediction now all things being equal you would expect the church to kind of remain the same.  But what happened from 1914 to 1922?  This was a time of World War I this was devastating to Europe; devastating to the Catholic Church.  To add insult to injury this is the time of the Bolshevik Revolution to Russia up to 200 million people left the church to join the Communist Party and the ones that didn’t Lennon specifically targeted religious leaders.  So right when this prophecy that we can prove was published hundreds of years before said that religion was depopulated we see probably the greatest depopulation of religion in history.

Sid: Tell me your sanctified speculation of what the last Pope’s reign will be like.

Cris:  Well, based on the text of this prophecy we see that it’s talking about the City of Seven Hills being destroyed.  It’s talking about judgment; now the City of Seven Hills is a really transparent reference to the city of Rome. You know this is what captured my imagination because like I said I’m not necessarily predisposed of this sort of Catholic prophecies but I look at the book or Revelation and it talks about the great harlot and the mystery Babylon, I mean it really strongly connects that to the city of Rome. In Revelation 17:9 it’s talking about the seven headed beast and it has two aspects to the heads.  And the first aspect it says that “The heads are seven mountains to which the woman siteth.” Now at the end of Revelation 17 it says “That woman that you saw is that great city that has domination over the kings of the earth.”  Now interpreting the Bible a good general rule is you always start with the author’s intention. Now when John was writing the Book of Revelation around AD 90 it was at the peak of the Roman Empire and so a city that has a dominion over the kings of the earth and the Apostles mind would be an arguing Rome.

Sid: Absolutely, but what is your sanctified speculation what will happen when this Pope rules?

Cris: Well because I see this connection to Biblical prophecy I think that it’s a very good possibility and this is what we argue is that this final Pope is the Biblical false prophet. In Revelation chapter 13. The anti-Christ usually gets most of the press, but around verse 11 or so it describes the second beast and it says he has horns like a lamb yet speaks like a dragon.  Now I think that everyone will agree that like a lamb is an inference to Jesus as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.  But generally you know horns and apocalyptic literature are a sign of power so now I think that this description of the false prophet is saying that he’s going to be seen as a powerful Christian leader and yet he’s going to speak like a dragon and leading the world to worship the anti-Christ.  So for those reasons I think worldwide you know people when they think of a powerful Christian leader instantly they would probably answer the Pope; so I see him in that role.

Sid: Okay, your brand new book “Exo-Vaticana” what does that mean?

Cris: Well, this prefix Exo, you know generally implies something other worldly.  We have you know Exo planets where they’re looking at planets outside of our solar system. There’s actually an area of theology now called exo-theology that handles how would theologians handle an extraterrestrial reality.  Catholics have really laid a lot of ground work in that realm of thought and this is what our book is about we think that a very likely component of the end-time scenario will involve a claimed extraterrestrial presence.

Sid: Okay you will not understand end-times without these two books that documents secret files in the Vatican Library and belief in aliens.  Petrus Romonas the last Pope hidden in the Vatican libraries over 900 years ago a vision of the next 112 Popes. Stunning accuracy of the first 111; now this last Pope will take office for the final judgment. The second book “Exo-Vaticana” documents the Vatican’s plan for a rival of an alien god with a small “g.” Secret files in the Vatican library on the reality of alien presence, Vatican’s position on extraterrestrials, Vatican’s project Lucifer. Why 2013 is the year top astronomers say the aliens will be revealed. The breeding and the hybrid program for humans and aliens…