Sid Roth

Sid: I got ahold of an unpublished manuscript and it’s called “The Messianic Church” and it’s by Pastor Robert Heidler. He’s pastor of Glory of Zion Outreach Center in Denton, Texas. He holds a Master’s in theology from Dallas Theological Seminary; he is a man of the Spirit. I have to ask you, Robert how in the world did you get from a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary, and writing a book called “The Messianic Church,” what did God do?

Robert: Well Sid it was a very interesting… I don’t know exactly what to call it. I’ve always been involved in the Messianic movement; I’ve been related to it in a number of ways. In 1997 I was asked to teach a course at the Messianic Jewish Bible Institute in Odessa, Ukraine. It was to teach a course on church history from the Messianic perspective. I’ve always liked church history; I’ve always honored the messianic movement, and seen that it was a great work of God. So I was excited to be able to teach this, and I began, but I never looked at church history before from a Messianic perspective. Like a lot of people I always assumed that the church began under the wing of Judaism, but the apostles very quickly separated it from Judaism, and established it as a Gentile organization. So to teach on the subject of church history from the Messianic perspective the first thing I wanted to know was, exactly when did that break take place. So I started in the books of Acts and really assumed by Acts 15 I would see a clear break where this is no longer a Jewish thing, it is now a Gentile thing. As I studied through the books of Acts what I found is that never happened. The apostles never tried to make or break from Judaism.  Even though I’d read the book of Acts many times, I had never really studied it on this before. I saw in Acts 15:5 there were members of the church that were still actively involved in the party of the Pharisees. In Acts 20:21 James boasts of tens of thousands of Jews in the church that believed in Jesus, but were still zealous for Torah. You see Jews and including the Apostle Paul still taking Nazarite vows, still observing Sabbaths and feasts. Paul planned the itinerary of his missionary journey around where he wanted to celebrate the feasts. It surprised me in Acts 23 when Paul was before the Sanhedrin, members of the Pharisee party stood up to speak in his defense. I got to the end of the book of Acts and realized they never made a break from Judaism.

Sid: Now is that where you got the title for the manuscript “The Messianic Church”?

Robert: Well what I saw was this, as far as the title that the early church… Paul and Peter and the other founders of the church were not Catholics, they were not Protestants, they were not charismatics, they were all Messianic Jews. They never tried to make a split from that that was there identity.  That was the flavor of Christianity that they planted, wherever they planted it.

Sid: So those first followers of Jesus would they have called themselves Christians, or Jews?

Robert: Well it’s interesting the word Christian that we have today is the Greek translation really of the word “A follower of the Messiah.” A Christian is the follower of Christ; Christ is the Greek word for Mashiach, for Messiah. So they would have called themselves Messianics.

Sid: So in effect it wasn’t Jews and Christians with a divide between the two, it was Jews that believed Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, and Jews that believed Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah, that was the issue. Sort of like today, we have a sect up in New York City that believe their messiah came a number of years ago and died and will come back, Rabbi Schneerson. They’re still called Jews, a little mashuga, but they’re still called Jews.

Robert: When the Gentile Christians came in, you know Ephesians, and Romans it talks about that they are engrafted into something that was already there, they were engrafted into this Messianic church.

Sid: You know a famous theologian by the name of Francis Schaeffer, his wife Edith Schaeffer wrote a book, and the title was “Christianity is Jewish.”

Robert: Yes, and that’s something we lost and it was not God’s will for us to lose it. We really didn’t lose the Jewish elements, Hebraic elements, until basically the 4^th century with the pagan Roman emperor coming in to offer the church a deal that it should have refused. The church that the apostles established was a Messianic church.

Sid: Now how does the church today relate to this actually authentic history that you’re speaking of. How does this play out for the church today?

Robert: Well I see in the church today the spirit of God is stirring for the church to reconnect with some things that it’s lost. You know since the protestant reformation, and there have been wave after wave of the Holy Spirit restoring to the church much that it has lost. In the 20^th century we saw the gifts of the Spirit restored into the church. As we come into the 21^st century there is just a ground swell all over the world everywhere I go of believers saying “We feel like we have lost something that we’re supposed to have.  There are some things that God wanted us to have to benefit from that the church has lost.” God is in the process of stirring a hunger for that.

Sid:  Well let me ask you this, how was the timing of losing our… you know rather than calling it Jewish roots I’d rather call it Biblical roots. What was the connection between the loss of the Biblical roots and the loss of the power of God?

Robert: Oh I think it was a very close connection because the loss of the Biblical roots came with the edicts of Constantine when the church submitted to that. That was tracing it historically; that’s when the church began to die; that’s when miracles began to end. Some teach that miracles ended at the end of the first century, but historically you can trace them continuing as a standard part of church life into the 3^rd and 4^th centuries. When the church began to cut itself off from the root, you know when you take a tree and you cut it off from the root the leaves begin to shrivel and die, and it can’t produce fruit anymore. Romans says “We feed on the rich sap of the root” which was the revelation, the Biblical revelation, that God gave beginning with Moses and onward. There was a lot of that the church just chose to reject and cut itself from, and the result was we lost the power; we lost the presence of God.

Sid: What do you think Paul meant in Romans 11 where he says “If it was a blessing the Jewish people rejected their Messiah,” of course the blessing was the Gentiles to be grafted in. “How much greater blessing when they receive their Messiah,” then he says something that I’d like to hear your spin on, “It’s going to cause life from the dead.” What did he mean?

Robert: Well I think it means it going to awaken something in the church that has not been seen for 1500 years. “Life from,” if you just want to sum that phrase up in one word it’s the word “Revival.” I believe he’s saying there, at that time when the Jews return and begin to come back to their Messiah, it is going to release and draw the church into the greatest revival in history. It will be the great end time revival. I believe that we are just at the place where that is beginning to be released.

Sid: Well I have tell you for those, of course, that are just tuning in for the first time I have a copy of an unpublished manuscript, and we have made copies of this. It’s called “The Messianic Church” by Pastor Robert Heidler. Trust me it fills in missing ingredients to cause light bulbs to go off. Here’s the reason I appreciate your work, I see many people that come into the information that you’ve come into Robert, then walk in such lack of love, and such a religious spirit that they literally fight what the heritage is that has evolved in Christianity.  Then I see Gentile Christians that have such a religious spirit they literally fight the Biblical Jewish roots, and both of them have the same religious spirit. Somewhere in this equation, especially with the New Covenant understanding, there is a freedom; it’s a Hebrew word it’s called “chofesh.” That’s what I read in your manuscript, freedom.

Robert: So many people want to get enamored with their Jewish roots and they really reject the New Covenant. They try to go back under legalism, and that’s not what God is calling us to do. God wants us to enjoy the freedom of the New Covenant and the joy that He has for us. There are some things that He wants us to benefit from that He intended to be a part of our heritage that we’ve lost. So we don’t go into it as a legalistic thing. You know in our church we celebrate the Biblical feasts, we also celebrate traditional Christian festivals.

Sid: You know Robert, I believe there’s a whole new paradigm coming to the church, and we’re just grasping it right now, but some of the missing ingredients are in your manuscript.

Sid: My guest Rabbi Kirt Schneider, what a background he come from a Jewish background, bar mitzvah in a conservative synagogue but like most Jewish people he didn’t know his scriptures and his god was wrestling.  He wanted to be a champion and he almost made it but he didn’t make it what a letdown. So then his god became money and he really didn’t make that and then he got a little into New Age he’s reading books on Yogis and Swamis and he goes to bed one night and no Christian witnessed to him. He’s 20 years in 1978 and he goes to bed and guess who appears, Jesus. Jesus appears and no one could talk him out of that; his parents very upset so they  hired one of the most famous programmers this is an individual that gets paid money to talk people out of their faith because they believe that perhaps these people are in cults or occult groups. Well he made no headway with Kirt. So he took him to what was called a rehab house and he didn’t make any headway there.  Two weeks later Kirt goes home and his parents hire a nice Jewish physicist and he ends up in a psych ward and what happened next Kirt?

Kirt:  Well that was a very very difficult time, I felt pretty good before going to the psych ward but I mean I felt like God was rebuilding my life; I was starting to build a new foundation for who I was in Yeshua and I was regaining my strength as I indicated earlier after wrestling I really was thrown for a loop but my life was being rebuilt in the Lord but I tell you what when I went in that psych ward it was very difficult because I would wake up every day with all this energy as a young man, but I couldn’t leave this little hallway. And by the time I got out of there in two months it was like my energy had been turned inward and it took me several months to be able to recuperate from that experience but praise God things have been an upward journey and you know I get along very well with my parents today it’s such a blessing. I get along as good today as I ever have and they’ve come a long way in fact they recently came to the Messianic Synagogue that I lead in Toledo and really enjoy the services. They are not believers, yet but it’s a long way from those days when they paid thousands of dollars to have me reprogramed and to have me probated to a mental hospital because of my faith in Yeshua.

Sid: Now the reason that I’m interviewing you is because you have taught such an easy to understand seminar on prophecy dreams and visions in your own life that’s how you came to know the Messiah. So obviously it’s important to you; tell me examples of some of how God has communicated with His people, not necessarily the scripture though the scripture is loaded, but through people you know or yourself.

Kirt:  Well, I’ll tell you one of the most significant encounters I’ve had with the Lord was this summer in August. I had a dream; I had been praying to the Lord consistently that He would give me a greater sense of His peace Sid.  And one night in August I went to sleep it was the very end of August and in my sleep I encountered the Lord, it was the most emotionally gratifying encounter I’ve ever had with Him in my life.  God has shown me many things in my dreams in terms of revelation; there have been times I’ve known what was going to happen before it came to happen etcetera.  But in this particular night in August I found myself in my dream I forest it was a beautiful lush forest there was green, lush green everywhere and this forest was surrounded on the perimeter with these huge rock boulders and one the rock boulders was this gorgeous green ivy this lush ivy growing on the boulders. Now the boulders serve to make this beautiful lush forest an enclosed spot so that it was a secret enclosed lush place.  And in the center of this forest there was a simple wooden picnic table; now while I’m seeing this in my dream the Spirit of God Sid is just bathing me with a supernatural peace; I’ve never experienced anything like it in my life.  It was the most beautiful awesome peace I’ve ever experienced in my life. As I’m seeing the lush scenery I feel God Spirit drawing me deeper into the forest closer to the picnic table that was in the center of the forest which I believe represented His presence and I’m feeling His peace just bath me drawing me deeper in. And then suddenly as this happens in the dream I smell pizza, and it was the most crisp smell of pizza I mean it was like the pizza was being baked three feet from me.  And instantly when I smelled the pizza in the pit of my stomach in my dream I got hungry and all of a sudden now I’m distracted now. On the one hand I’m wanting to be drawn deeper into God’s presence and deeper into His peace and then on the other hand I smell this pizza and I got hungry, and I remember thinking “What should I do?”  And I vaguely remember that maybe I could have a piece of this pizza and then I’ll be drawn deeper into the forest and as soon as I thought that Sid the dream ended and immediately I got out of bed and I was so upset with myself because I thought here was the most emotionally satisfying encounter I’ve had with the Lord in my life and I traded it in for a lousy piece of pizza. I mean I was just beating myself up mentally what in the world I was begging God to give me another chance apologizing to him that I did this.  I went back to sleep and the next morning I got up, I sat on my couch I started recording the dream and I said “Oh Lord please forgive me, please give me another chance” and I began to think about the dream, and I said “Oh Lord, what was the pizza?” I said now it could have been the devil but I said even if it was the devil I still believe that your intelligent design was in the dream and that there is a meaning and a reason that that happened with the pizza.  And what I believe God spoke to me about Sid was fasting, and I believe He revealed to me “You want a greater sense of my peace, I want you to deny yourself the natural for the sake of receiving more of the supernatural. And as a result of that dream I was able to fast for six weeks and previous to that I had never been able to fast successfully in my entire life.

Sid: Out of curiosity what type of fast were you on for six weeks?

Kirt:  I started out the fat with just one meal a day and then the last ten days well the last seven of the ten days I went to no food at all, and then the last three days I went to no food or water and that ended on Yom Kippur.

Sid: What are the results of that fast?

Kirt:   Well, I would say that there have been many results of the fast, I would say that my whole lifestyle now is more disciplined.  I believe that through that God gave me the ability to subdue my flesh and rule over myself in a greater way than I had previous to that.  Am I walking in undisturbed peace? No, but I’m walking in a greater sense of peace. That’s only one example of how God spoke to me supernaturally in a dream directing me in my life.  And I was amazed Sid as I began to teach on this; as we looked up the dream or dreams in concordance how often in scripture God has spoken to his people through dreams and yet most believers today Sid are paying no attention to their dreams at all.  To disregard our dreams to to disregard the voice of God.  In mystical Judaism there’s a teaching that says that you know that when we’re awake we’re sometimes so attached to the material environment in other word somebody’s at work they’re working on the computer you know they’re trying to get a job done for the boss. It’s difficult to be able to be conscious of things of God when you’re functioning in that environment. But when we sleep our soul is loose to some degree from its attachment of the material world and in that state of being loose the Lord will often times speak to us because we’re more receptive.  The Bible says that “Is there a prophet among you the Lord will speak to him in a vision or a dream.”  And of course in Joel chapter 2 verses 28 and 29 and the fulfillment of that in Acts 2 Peter says “Now that God’s Spirit has been poured out the result is that we’re going to be able to receive dreams from the Lord.”  Dreams should not be decreasing, they should be increasing, this is an experience for all of God’s people. One of my favorite scriptures in the Hebrew Bible was from the book of Job chapter 33.  Elihu speaks this; Elihu was one of Job’s counselors that God does not chastise at the end of the book of Job because we remember the other counselors gave Job bad advice but not Elihu.  And in chapter 33 of Job Elihu says this in verse 14 “Indeed God speaks once or twice yet no one notices it in a dream, a vision of the night when sound sleep falls on men while they slumber in their beds then He opens the ears of men and seals their instruction.”  Notice what He said there “That God speaks once twice and people who aren’t listening,” when is He doing it?  When they are sleeping in their bed; and I have found that through having a dream journal which I have been keeping since 1994 that I have made it a practice when I wake up in the morning one of the first things I do is ask myself now “What did I dream last night?”  And I found Sid as I begin to think and recall what will happen is as I’m writing it down God will begin then to bring back to me the things that I dreamed.  I mean I had dreams that of people that were in my congregation that were going to rise up and cause trouble; I’ve had dreams of them doing this months before it ever happened.

Sid: Now was it symbolic or was it literal as far as the person, could you recognize the person in the dream?

Kirt:  Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Many dreams are symbolic for example we think of Joseph and how he has the dreams of his father, and mother, and sisters, brothers bowing down to him.  But he doesn’t see his brothers bowing down to them he sees the sheaves bowing down to them.  Right and the sun and moon and stars bowing down to him and we ask ourselves the question “Why didn’t God just show Joseph you know his brother bowing down rather showing Joseph sheaves and sun and moon and stars?  But you know we look at other places in scripture we see a similar phenomenon so for example Kefa, Peter, in Acts chapter 10 going on top of the house while they’re making lunch and he falls into a trance and sees these un-kosher animals. And the voice says “Take and eat” and he says “I’ve never eaten those things.”  When we found out that as he was pondering the meaning of the vision then suddenly you know Cornelius comes to the door, his servant and he realizes that the meaning of the vision is to bring the gospels to the Gentles and not to consider them unclean.  So the question is why did God not just show Peter you know that he was supposed to bring the gospel to Cornelius and to the Gentles and why show him un-kosher animals. It’s very similar to Yeshua speaking in parables, the Bible says Yeshua says the Yeshua spoke to them in parables and without speaking to them in a parable he did not speak to them about anything.  Then his disciples came and asked Him “What’s the meaning of the parable?”  And Yeshua said “To you it’s been granted to know the mysteries of Kingdom of God.”  Now the same thing happened with Kefa, with Peter, it says “As Peter was pondering the meaning of the trans.”  You see I believe God speaks in symbols because he wants to involve us in discovery he doesn’t want us to make it so easy that we’re just living like robots.

Sid: My guests Anita and David Duggan, we’ve been talking to them all this week how God, the mercy of God, set Anita free from drug addiction, set David free from alcohol addiction. The thing that’s so amazing is that they work with a friend of mine by the name of Gary Oates who published a book called “Open My Eyes Lord.” So many people have been reading this book because for the first time it’s a step by step book of how to have your eyes opened to the spirit realm, but not just your eyes all of your senses open to the spirit realm. Anita you almost from the beginning when you got saved you started seeing angels. Tell me one of your first experiences with an angel.

Anita: One of my first experiences, Dave and I were married a very short period of time, and we had started going to Gary and Kathi Oates’ church in Gatlinburg. We had a guest speaker and David and I had walked in the back of the church and I noticed an angel leaning over where the book table was.

Sid: Now when you see an angel describe to me what you see with your eyes.

Anita: The angel that I saw with my eyes that day literally had a form; big he was fat, he had a funny look on his face and he was leaning his elbow, his elbow was leaning on the book table, and he was leaning over it just watching what was going on. I saw him.

Sid: Not in this case, but in general what are angels doing? Someone that has the discernment that you have what are they doing when they show up?

Anita: Well what I do when I see an angel is I ask them what they’re there for because sometimes I see angels in different ways, and different places at different times. I have seen angels standing behind people that are in a prayer line, and they are holding something in their hands which represents what that person’s destiny is. I’ve seen angels flying around the room; I’ve seen warring angels; I’ve seen angels come through walls that are marching that are fully armed. Really it depends on the place we’re at, the situation in a person’s life, or what the church represents.

Sid: Okay, let me take you a few years ago you were in Columbia at a youth meeting, tell me about that.

Anita: That was an amazing experience, it blew me away. This one church had a lot of youth in… there was a huge amount of youth in this church, like over a thousand kids, it amazed me. They all came up for ministry. When I started to… looked up to pray with them with my interpreter I started seeing angels behind every single one of these young people, and the angels were carrying something in either one or two of their hands. I’ll give you an example, this one angel came up behind this young man and he had a harp in one hand, and he had some kind of cymbal in another hand. I had no idea that this young man played in the youth ministry band of their church, and he was a drum player. He had been crying out to God to make his gift more versatile. He wanted to be able to play more instruments, but he also wanted to be able to be used more in ministry than just in music. When I saw this angel I just spoke it out and he collapsed; he just fell over.

Sid: Anita what was the first time you saw a manifestation of a physical healing?

Anita: It was our first trip to Peru with Gary and Kathi Oates, and there was a woman who came up and she had a tumor on her knee, it was the size of a grapefruit. When you put your hand on it, not only could you see it but you could feel it, it was really hard. I had an interpreter with me, and really to be quite honest with you I was scared because it was the first time I was stepping out in faith. It amazed me to see the miracle. I put my hand on her tumor and I raised my other hand up to God, and I just said “Lord I curse the life of this tumor in the name of Jesus. Lord I ask you to shrink it.” It was like letting air out of a balloon.

Sid: You could… your hand was touching it actually. Could you feel it going down?

Anita: Absolutely. It went down half way. I looked up at my interpreter and I said “Ask her if she felt that.” She was shaking her head yes before he even asked her. I said “Well let’s just continue.” We prayed more, and the tumor literally shrunk down; I could feel it disappear under my hand.

Sid: David, I understand that God has opened your eyesight to see the tangible presence of God’s glory. Tell me about it.

David: As a matter of fact Sid yesterday morning I was in prayer with some other people. We were just worshipping the Lord and praying scripture. We created a place, a dwelling place for God. I was lying on the floor and just soaking in His presence, which is one of the things that Gary’s book teaches so beautifully. We literally saw, there was at least a couple of us that saw the manifestation of the glory of God in the form of a cloud come into the room and settle over us. It was literally, I was touching it with my fingertips as I laid on the floor facing heaven.

Sid: David when you see this cloud, or experience the cloud, do other people see the cloud even nonbelievers?

David: Sid we had an experience we were in Medellín, Colombia. We were on one of the ministry trips with Gary and Kathi Oates and others. I had gotten up that morning and I was shaving in the bathroom and I was listening to worship music. There had been a spirit of intercession resting on me from the day before and I was continuing to intercede as I listened to this worship music for the people in the city of Medellín and throughout that country. When I came out of the bathroom into our hotel room, the room was full of smoke. The thing about the smoke was…

Sid: Now that was not on fire, right?

David: There was no fire.

Sid: Okay [Laughing] go ahead.

David: There was no fire, there was no smell of smoke. This was not natural smoke.

Anita: I mean we weren’t choking either.

David: The reason that I knew that it wasn’t natural smoke is it was more dense down near the floor than it was up high next to the ceiling. I told Anita I said “Anita look the room is full of smoke.” She knows that I like to take long hot showers, and her first reaction was well you just steamed up the room. I said “No!” I said “This is the… the room is full of smoke.” I went over to the window and opened the window; the climate in Colombia in Medellín is just wonderful and I wanted to enjoy the morning air. There was so much smoke from the manifest glory of God that it began to billow out the window, coming up off the floor and billowing out the window. I was concerned that someone would think that the room was on fire and looked out in the parking lot to see if there was anybody would be looking to see if…

Sid: I have literally heard of churches where this glory is as strong as you’re describing and fire trucks have come to these churches.

David: Well we were… well I was concerned about that. As I was looking out the window the phone rings, I go over and I answer the phone and it’s the front desk and they’re telling me that my smoke alarm has been activated by the smoke that is in my room. There are asking me “Is there a fire in your room?” I said “No, there is no fire.” “Are you smoking in your room?” I said “No we are not smoking.” They said “This smoke detector has been activated.” I said “Well my room is full of smoke, but there’s no fire here.” The joy of the Lord just came on me and I began to laugh in the presence of this glory of God. They said “We’re going to send a building engineer up to check it out.” So in just a couple of minutes a young man he comes bursting into the room, he sees the smoke; his eyes get as big as saucers Sid, an he’s looking around, he did what I did I looked at the air conditioner vent to see if there was any smoke being introduced through the air conditioning vent and there wasn’t. He went over he checked the smoke alarm, and then he went and looked out the window to see if there was any fire outside that would be introducing smoke into the room, and of course there wasn’t. When he turned around Anita was coming out of the bathroom and she just spoke to him and said “This smoke is the manifestation of the glory of God.” She just explained that to him, and he immediately said “Well I have to go check some other places I’ll be back” and he ran out of the room.

Sid: Now on these ministry trips is it true that you see every miracle that’s written in the New Testament.

David: Anita and myself have personally seen every miracle except someone being raised from the dead. That’s the only one we have not seen year to date. We’ve seen blind eyes opened; we’ve seen deaf ears opened; we have seen people who are lame from strokes absolutely healed in a matter of seconds so that they walk off completely normal.

Sid: You know what, as you’re talking about the glory of God, the glory of God is coming. I can’t see it, but I can sure feel the glory of God coming in this studio. I believe that on tomorrow’s broadcast there are going to be a release of the gift of miracles.

Sid:  My guest James he knows what I’m talking about. Eddie you know in scripture it talks about that “I’d rather that you be hot or cold but if you’re lukewarm I’ll vomit you out of my mouth.” I don’t understand how someone that knows Jesus can be lukewarm I mean; I don’t see anyone wanting to be lukewarm when we’re at the most exciting time in the history of planet earth.  Let’s take you back Eddie is an individual that his CD’s have been number 3 in the national charts of the gospel music.  And people are getting free from homosexuality, from all sorts of addictions, drugs, pornography, physical healing, emotional healing, but I want them to get to know you a little bit.  You got saved at 8, you had a call to the nations with audible voice of God.  You told your mom and a prophet had told her that. Was this before you were born the prophet gave that or when you were little?

Eddie:  Yeah.

Sid: It was before you were born, you know that reminds me of the scripture, “Before you were conceived in your mother’s womb God knew you and God called you.”

Eddie:  Yes Sir.

Sid: Then you were telling me some of the amazing things you saw; your mother’s prayer life; you saw all sorts from physical miracles, did you really see gas go from empty to tank?

Eddie: Yeah, my mother needed to go to the grocery store and do some errands to pay bills and a Buick red Regal, I’ll never forget and my mother she was one of those radical.  She would lay hands and pray for anything she would pray for the washing machine and it worked, for the dryer to turn on and she called it her fixit man.  And so…  

Sid: You know what it sounds like?  It sounds like to me that short of Jesus you’re mother’s your hero.

Eddie:   Yeah, yeah very much so. (laughing)

Sid: I could tell (laughing).  Let me ask you something because I’m curious about you went to high school and you started a worship team, that’s not a normal MO for someone going into high school.  Why did you do that?

Eddie:  Well, I got filled with the Holy Spirit just before I went to high school at my church. One of the things that obviously comes from in Act’s 1:8 that you’ll be a witness. And there was a strong message about being a witness on high school campus and especially mine that I was going to in Arizona because the drug crisis was getting so bad the gangs back then the Crips and the Bloods from LA was really infiltrating Phoenix, Arizona and so I went with that in mind. And the Lord showed me there was several students that all went to church together in high school and so I said, “Let’s sing, let’s get together and do some singing before school.”  And it just became such a very popular powerful tool to share the gospel that it just grew from there; the next year it came from a group to a choir.  And before I graduated from high school I had some 80 – 90 kids in my high school choir. Then it turned into a community effort going everywhere.  Instead of taking our school choir for instance, they would take our gospel choir, our high school gospel choir all over Arizona to different schools to do different things, and it was powerful.  And so kids wanted to be a part and so I turned it into a Phoenix community movement therefore.

Sid: Now did many come to the Lord as a result of this Eddie?

Eddie: Oh my God we had outbreaks of revival in our high school campus; we had times when we would go into our classrooms and God would come into our…okay we would rehearse every day that we did do the ministry in front of the school or the cafeteria. We would have rehearsals so our rehearsals was on Tuesdays and Thursdays.  We had rehearsals… One of the teachers, who was a Spirit filled teacher, was our host teacher. Holy Ghost would come into our classrooms, and we’d be out on the floor in our English school classroom speaking in tongues at our school.  We had, oh My God, we had kids get saved, I’ve seen people get delivered from demons, people get set free from addictions on our high school campus.

Sid: You know one of the things, and time is slipping away unfortunately, one of the things that intrigues me so much is that your music comes from Heaven.  And tell me very briefly about a song called “I Need You.”  This is astounds me this song.

Eddie:  Okay I was in Gaston, Alabama and preparing to do a service that night. As I was there, I was in a pastor’s home preparing, and I literally went into a vision.  I don’t have many of these but this one was so real I really I left earth and went into Heaven in an open vision and I heard this song “I Need You.” And what stood out to me about the entire experience was when I heard “Da da da dah…” I instantly knew that this was the sound of children that either died in the womb due to abortion or miscarriage or things of that nature.  And when I came out of this open vision I went straight to the church and taught it to my worship team, and when I taught it to them it was the first song we did.  My worship team got wrecked just at the rehearsal, when we sang this song that night it was the only song we sang the entire night. I mean God came, people came to the altar we never made and altar call, we never called people to repentance, we never called people to get delivered but people were throwing their cigarettes on the altar, people were throwing their drugs on the altar, people were repenting and getting right with God.  And everywhere we went for at least the next month to six weeks that song would take over the entire room.

Sid:  Okay this is “I Need You” by Eddie James really from Heaven; when you hear “Da da da” the sounds the unborn children.

Excerpt:  “I Need You”

Sid:  I have on the telephone a friend of mine most of you are familiar with him his name is Rick Joyner. Rick is known really for his 3 most famous books are called “The Final Quest” which is shortly to be a motion picture. I believe in Heaven’s history the thing He’ll be known for is the revival that’s going to be sparked from his latest book “The Power to Change the World.”  Now on yesterday’s broadcast Rick we were talking about the two greatest revivals in all of history the Welsh Revival and Azusa Street.  And there are many things that people think of when they hear revival, but the thing that I see emphasized in these men and women of God is a word that is not a normal Sunday morning message, humility and a word called obedience.  How did this play out in these two great revivals?

Rick:  Well, I think they were essential foundations in those who I think probably sparked the greatest revivals in church history and that is Evan Roberts and William Seymour; but both of them were incredibly humble, of not only of humble backgrounds, but and very poor people but they were you know by the world’s standards but they were humble before the Lord.  They wanted God more than anything this world…almost more than their next breath they wanted God and you know God gives His grace to the humble. You know if we really grasp that; you know one moment, one tiny touch of God’s grace is worth more than all the labor we could do in a life time.

Sid: You know this isn’t false humility on my part but the older I get the greater I get, the more I realize I’ve got nothing to do with anything as long as I just stay out of the way.

Rick:  Well, that’s I believe true maturity, spiritual maturity and it’s rare, it is truly rare.

Sid: It’s well if you knew about all my pimples you’d understand why I know it’s all God.  But any way bigger and better things, How does someone get this humility? We’re not taught it, we’re taught the opposite of it be it within Christianity or the secular arena.

Rick:  Scriptures are full of exhortations for us to humble ourselves. I believe there are things we can do to humble ourselves and ways that we do that.  But I think also if we really behold the Lord, when the king came in even the twenty-four elders cast their crowns at His feet.  You know who could presume glory or possession in His presence and I believe if we would really behold the Lamb, Behold the Lord whatever crowns we think we have, or even that He’s given us we would gladly cast at this feet.  It’s by beholding who He is that I think we’re truly humbled.

Sid: You know the pendulum always seems to swing in Christianity. The pendulum has always swayed to God is my magic lamp, like Aladdin and the magic lamp, and if I rub the lamp the genie will do anything I want; he’s my buddy, he’s my good friend.  Whatever happened to something called the fear of God, the reverence of God.  The Holiness of God, the respect of God.

Rick:  Well, you know in a lot of Christian circles it is you know sadly lacking enough think that you don’t find much of God there either.  (Laughing) You know you can have all kinds of great preaching you can have you know all kinds of great things happening.  You know the Lord will bless almost anything done in His Name but He won’t inhabit it and the church is supposed to be His temple  that He inhabits and you know He blessed Ishmael made him a great nations.  He’ll bless works of the flesh even, but we’ve got to learn to distinguish between the things that God is just blessing and what is He inhabiting.  And that’s what Moses prayed for he said “Lord if Your presence doesn’t go with us don’t send us up from this place because how can we be distinguished from all the other nations on the face of the earth except by Your presence being with us? And Christianity is not just a better way to live; it is a better way to live and it’s not just another philosophy, it is a relationship with God almighty.  I believe if we would just start trying to build our churches with a goal of attracting the Holy Spirit instead of just trying to attract people we would have more people than we would know what to do with.

Sid: Listen in your book you literally show document that Evan Roberts who was one of the leaders in the Welsh revival violated every principal of church growth.  In addition to not having a good education or being eloquent.

Rick:  Well, you know I think that we could have accused John the Baptist with doing the same thing. You know he started his church in the lowest place on the earth the Dead Sea; he didn’t dress for power, I mean he was probably repulsive to watch him eat. I mean he was doing everything wrong but he was so anointed it says “All Judea came after him.”  He didn’t have to go to Jerusalem everybody knew if he wanted to be heard or you want to have religious voice you go to Jerusalem.  He was so anointed Jerusalem came to him.  And that’s what we need is the anointing…

Sid: Now did he have Madison Avenue drawing his crowds?

Rick:  I don’t think he would have had a clue; I think if he had known about such things he would have been repulsed by them.  He wasn’t out to promote, he was so anointed he had all the business he could handle. But his goal was to prepare the way for the Lord.  His goal wasn’t to build his own ministry it was to point to Jesus and prepare the way for Him.

Sid: Rick I’m reminded of a generation of Jewish people that could not even enter the promise land, Israel. It was only the young that could go in and Joshua and Caleb.  Is our current generation going to be willing to throw out the model that has evolved for God’s model?

Rick:    Well, that is the big question you know. I know I have friends that take both sides of that and I personally believe there are going to be many Joshua’s and Caleb’s from the present generation that are even going to help lead the coming generation into the promise land.  And you know and we are in the age of grace you know and the Lord can transform, renew anybody and…

Sid: I’m reminded of John Kilpatrick at the Great Pensacola Brownsville Revival. My spin is the reason that it really even got started was because he was flat on his back knocked out by the Spirit for several weeks and when he came to his senses the revival had started.

Rick:  Yeah, yeah he had to kind of run to catch up didn’t he?

Sid: Maybe that’s well I know that’s the only way God could have gone into a good charismatic church and started revival.  So maybe He’s just going to do that all over the world, let it happen quickly Rick.

Rick:  Yeah, I mean to me one of the most sad scriptures is where Jesus is standing at the door knocking to come into His own church you know.  And one thing is that He would do that, God Almighty would do that.  But you know it wasn’t those that heard the knock who opened to them it was “If anyone hears My voice and opens I will come in.”  And to know the voice of the Lord, His sheep know His voice, they listen to Him, they follow the shepherd.  And it’s a very personal, you know the sheep become very personal with their Shepherd, very close very dependent.  And yet you know so often we drift off into religious performance and projects and everything else and…

Sid: Why do we do all of these projects?

Rick:  Well, you know I think many of them are in the purpose of the Lord and many of them but even so Adam learned to walk with God in the garden and he learned to that was his job, he was put in the garden to cultivate it.  We need to walk with God in our job, walk with God in our ministry; I know you know the studies that show that the average pastor in America spends less than 5 minutes a day in prayer.

Sid: I can understand it; they’re too busy doing religious things.

Rick:  Right we forget to walk with Him daily, in our ministry and we lose that, we lose it but one touch of His presence…

Sid: I mean Evan Roberts walked out for a week because God told him too and he’s the leader of one of the greatest revivals the world has ever seen.  Could you picture a pastor being in that position and say “But God what will happen to my church?”

Rick:  Yeah, I mean Evan Roberts was far more fearful of losing the presence of the Lord than he was the people.

Sid: Now, I’ve been to your church up in Wilkesboro, North Carolina. You do something outrageous you close the church for a month and tell your people to go to other churches.  I’ve never heard of that before.

Rick:  Well, you know one reason we do that we know we’re just a tiny part of the body of Christ and we want our folks to have a vision for the whole body.

Sid: Now aren’t you afraid your people will like these new churches and just say goodbye Rick?

Rick:   Well, we hope some of them do actually.

Sid: You want a membership drive you want to drive out the wrong members, okay.

Rick:  Not really.

Sid: We’re going to stop this right now because we’re out of time.

Sid: My guest is Dennis Clark and we ran out of time on yesterday’s broadcast. Dennis was explaining that the peace that now radiates between himself and his wife has, as good as their marriage was before, it supernaturally kicked into a whole new gear. I’m concerned not just your marriage what about other people’s marriages. Tell me something.

Dennis: For a lack of a better term, when we had this experience we called it a one accord. We had people come up to us and say “You and Jennifer have a oneness anointing.” We didn’t know what to do with that, but suddenly we’re in a church and without asking for it to happen, like during a fellowship time, multitudes of married couples felt led to walk up to us and ask for a prayer. Then we learned God was doing something with this oneness anointing, this peace deepening relationship. When they came we prayed for them, but then we learned what we did was we taught them, for lack of a better term, melt together where they experienced each other Spirit to Spirit. You would be surprised how many husbands and wives love each other, but they don’t commune. Commune is to know one another by the Spirit. That knowledge is increasing and there is actually, providing their willing to forgive one another, an opportunity to melt into one another, and know one another by the Spirit better.

Sid: What kind of testimonies did you have at this meeting where this melting occurred?

Dennis: In the beginning they just felt like I don’t know why I’m coming to you; I’m coming. The best testimony was later when we said “You know what this works so well their just telling they wanted prayer and that they felt peace and they felt like they joined to one another.” We incorporated it in a marriage seminar later and actually did it to where we had people in the beginning, I think 1 out of 40, 20 couples. One out of 40 actually felt like they had a good Spirit to Spirit connection. We basically broke them into a place of learning Christ the forgiver on the inside breaking down any walls of hostility between the two, then had them come forward. Listen to this, it was 100% in that marriage seminar where they melted together without any walls of resistance, or hostility, or anything between the 2 of them. To me I said “I change from this day forward, all marriage seminars, no more communication, communication is going to be communion, communion, communion, communion.”

Sid: You use a term you say “There is power in peace. From the peace we get this power and it releases destiny, it releases purpose.” What do you mean by that?

Dennis: The peace is like the supernatural interaction that God works with us. I know through peace that there are divine appointments see I treat everybody that comes into my life as a divine appointment. Then I cooperate to be a divine connection and have peace with them regardless of our differences I maintain peace. If it’s two-way it’s a connection then the connection, and here is what I believe peace is doing. The Prince of Peace, His government is to establish an order and to establish. I see when His peace comes in a relationship that He is ordering us to live in an exact place with certain people, there’s a certain people, there’s a certain place, there’s a certain plan that He has for us. If we cooperate, that divine order we are ushering in our fullness of our divine purpose. Our purpose is always corporate. Destiny always includes other people, but without peace how will we know who those other people are, and how will we maximize our potential in reaching our destiny.

Sid: Briefly a couple of days ago we talked about the 5 “G’s” of peace. The first “G” was govern, tell us briefly the first 2, then let’s finish the other 3.

Dennis: The first one is govern, and govern means learning learning to walk in such a way that the peace of God rules in your heart. The Amplified Bible of that same scripture says “Let the peace of God umpire.” Umpire means let Him call the shots whether you’re safe, or whether you’re out, whether it’s a yes, or whether it’s a no. Let the peace of God guide you in your decision making in life. The third is the ability that it gathers, it draws. Peace is attractive. People, especially troubled people, chaotic people their looking for comfort.

Sid: Can troubled chaotic people actually feel your peace, nonbelievers can they feel the peace coming from you?

Dennis: Absolutely, but something better than that, we teach them how to get it for themselves. We teach them how to tap in…

Sid: Have you ever had someone that’s a non-Christian say “That peace I feel coming from you I want that,” and you lead them to the Lord.

Dennis: Yes, yes.

Sid: What a great way for evangelism.

Dennis: It’s tremendous. I’m not the greatest articulate person for evangelism, but I know one thing I’ve said is when they’re attracted to that peace I say “You know what, God works from the inside out, and you can have the same peace. You’re feeling it on the outside, but God can give it to you on the inside. And you receive Him and you have peace with God. Then you have the peace of God.”

Sid: Do you find when you go into a room of people that because of the peace of God radiating from you, you have favor with people?

Dennis: I’d say you not only have favor with people…

Sid: Are they drawn to you?

Dennis: Sure, sure. Their drawn… we’ve seen them come up crying in the middle of a mall, unsaved people and don’t even know why.

Sid: Alright, we were going through the 5 “G’s” of peace. We had govern, guide, gather, what is the fourth?

Dennis: The fourth one is to guard, to guard your heart and your mind. Peace guard’s your heart and mind. That wasn’t meant to be poetry that was meant to be an encounter. That was meant to be a supernatural experience. When peace guards your heart you can be in any type of hostile environment and still perceive the exterior atmosphere, but be abiding in peace within.

Sid: Give me an example.

Dennis: Okay, one time I was working at a halfway house of men that were getting out of prison. Inwardly I had peace, outwardly from the place of peace I discerned the atmosphere got suddenly charged, very evil, very chaotic. Nothing was being said, but it was usually the kind of feeling that I would feel and discern when someone was going to make a break for it, or do something. The atmosphere shifted, and I was standing by one of the doors that was the exit. One of the men who had failed to take his medication pulled a knife and started to move toward me to and threatened me to move out of the way, he was leaving. The supernatural peace of God made me feel safe and secure beyond my understanding, and I just knew that I knew that I knew it was impenetrable. He put the knife down.

Sid: You know I’m hearing this story and I know what God has shown me is going to happen in the future the chaos in the streets. Can you imagine walking in this kind of supernatural peace no matter what’s going on around? Do you really believe this should be the norm as opposed to a supernatural manifestation that just happens once in a while?

Dennis: Correct. What better place than a hostile environment, particularly a warzone. If we were going to give them anything of value, sometimes it’s not food, and sometimes it’s not supplies, as beneficial as all those things are. If we could truly give people in a troubled environment in a warzone perhaps, comfort that comes from that kind of peace your giving them everything.

Sid:  You know what I’m thinking, people are selling 90 days’ worth of dehydrated food, water supplies. If I had a choice of one thing it wouldn’t be water, and it wouldn’t be food, it would be the supernatural peace of God.

Dennis:  Absolutely, I’ve even seen it with physical healing that I saw people that were terminal. Even in their terminal illness the torment seemed to be the worst thing. That they were believers that the mental torment… I said “I want start with bringing peace to them first on the inside, then let Christ the healer rise up and manifest.”

Sid:  The big question is, once they get peace on the inside do they get healed?

Dennis:  Absolutely. I’ve seen more people…

Sid:  Do you have to pray for healing once they get their peace, or does it just happen?

Dennis:  That’s the ironic thing I’m wondering what God is trying to teach me. We pray for them to come into that supernatural exchange of peace and deal with toxic emotions, and healing has almost always been the byproduct. The supernatural healings we’ve seen we never directly asked for them, except perhaps on some occasions, but I can even remember an occasion where I directly went toward the physical healing.

Sid:  Tell me someone, let’s just pick one I have a list in front of me. Someone that had arthritis in their hands what happened to her.

Dennis:  Yes, that was a woman that was in the hospital very sick. She basically had arthritic pain, she was bitter, and was told that Christ would manifest as the forgiver if she would forgive, and allow Him to forgive through her. She listened and she did it, and as she did one emotional healing she forgave her mother and the arthritis right before your eyes straightened out and disappeared. She was forgiving her mother, we were not praying for arthritis, she was forgiving her mother and the supernatural took place. We’ve seen this on countless occasions.

Sid:  I mean almost every condition have you seen healed through walking in supernatural peace.

Dennis:  Colorblindness, tumors…

Sid:  Woops we’re out of time.

Sid: I have on the telephone the Pastor of Victory Christian Fellowship in New Castle, Delaware Dr. Gary Whetsone. We’re talking about his series all this week of what God has joined together.  But when I got Gary on the phone he said, “Sid about a year ago I was in Israel and I had a vision and I must tell people about this,” please Gary tell me what you saw.

Gary: When I was standing on the Mount of Olives looking over at the eastern Wall right where Jesus would come through the eastern gate as He returns. All of a sudden, actually I was on a video interview asking people to come to Israel with us on the next trip. The entire world just vanished and I saw it go before my eyes, it was an open vision where you are aware of your surroundings, but yet you’re seeing just a panoramic view of what God is revealing. I watched humanity from barbarous days from humanity from every type of culture end. Ethnic origin and agenda age passed into a time where God cried out to them “Here My voice.” Then they would move, some people would listen and they would stay in that voice of the presence in the voice of God. The majority of the people moved outside of that voice, and there was a multitude of other voices. Some voices were telling them what God was saying, others were telling them what God wasn’t saying, what man should do, and people would begin to do things and build things. Everything they did and built even in the name of God burnt up. As I watched this vision I began to, just in my spirit it was like a horror because I realized so few people stayed in the centrality of the voice of God. Then the most effective thing that I saw was myself.  I watched myself come into life, and then come into the voice of God when God spoke to me. Then I watched, people I knew explain what they thought God was telling and saying to do. Then I watched other people tell me how you do this, and how you do that, and how this should happen. I watched everything that I put my hand to begin to burn, and God spoke to me out of that vision, “If I continued listening to the voices of others that which I do would be burned up, the candle would be taken out of its place, and the lamp would be blown out.” Now Sid what that means is the church God has given, and we have several thousands of people; we’ve led over a million people to Jesus in our lifetime so far. We have the names and addresses of 190 thousand families of first time decisions. What took place in my spirit as I saw that, I realized the risk of lives, it’s not just mine, but those that we lead to Christ; those that we speak who Christ is to; those who we declare what the church is to, but the life of God and the candle of the church itself can be removed.  Just like in the book of the Revelation of Jesus, but as soon as I heard that I was instantly with Jesus, with the Father in communion. Right on this video I’m crying out to God that God would do a miracle for the church; that they would have access to the communion with the Father, and with the Son that I have.

Sid: Everyone is listening to prophets, “What is God saying for me?” But that’s not what the Bible says, the Bible says “My sheep hear My voice” everyone has got so many different teachings, everyone is trying to do things for God, but if I’m hearing you right what you’re saying is we have got so much false teaching out there; we’ve got so much false prophecy out there; we’ve got so much tradition out there that if there is ever been a time that we have to hear God for yourself it’s now.

Gary: It is now Sid. I tell you it shook me to the core of my being. Every day for 6 days a week I take a group of people on the internet and in their sanctuary across the country, and we are praying just for the voice of God to be heard in people’s lives for 2 hours a day because there’s nothing more significant than to hear the voice of God.

Sid: Now you have been praying this for almost a year, what is God saying to you right now?

Gary: Well what He spoke into me so clearly and distinctly is that people must take the time with God. That they just can’t continue on the path of religious activity and their current status of events and the way they do things. Right now they have to pause…

Sid: You know I have to interject something right now because this was my thought when you first told me about this a few minutes before we went on the air. That 2000 years ago a Jewish carpenter, the Son of God, Yeshua, Jesus the Messiah walked into the only correct religion of the day, traditional Judaism. He said “Your tradition makes void the word of God.” Now it’s 2000 years later and I believe He could walk into most religious ministries, most churches; I have an idea Gary He could say the same thing.

Gary: Well He did to me. Sid I’d been in early morning prayer for 30 years; I pray every day for an hour, and when I heard the Lord speak to me that I’ve listened to voices of other, and that I spend an hour a day in prayer it just awoken me to the place of even what I’ve prayed for. Has many times not been offered by God, it just shook me. That’s what I’ve been praying for now for a year. That the people, the body of Christ would just stop, pastors would stop, preachers would stop, and just say “What have You said to me God, and if You didn’t say it I’m not going to do it.”

Sid: So you’re almost saying, not almost you are saying “I’m doing nothing unless God tells me.” Is that what I’m hearing you say?

Gary: I have shut down everything that I have not heard God say to do in the last year.  That is what we’ve done.

Sid: That’s pretty bold, but when you see most of the works that you’ll end up doing that man will say “Ah that’s so wonderful Pastor Gary,” and they’ll just burn up. It’s a game.

Gary: That is it, and you know what took place just in this last year God gave us a play. We have led 2,100 people in one month to a first time decision for Christ, with a play that God gave us in this last year.

Sid: This came out of your quiet time with God?

Gary: Just hearing God’s voice. That was one month we had 2,100 first time decisions for Christ in Delaware.

Sid: You know it reminds of, my office is in Brunswick, Georgia, and there was a prison nearby us in which Jim Baker was in. I used to go visit him and he said to me, you know I was talking to him about a big television ministry. He looked at me and almost laughed he said “Listen if someone has the gifting they can have a big television ministry without God.” That’s almost as sobering as what you just told me.

Gary: Yeah it’s true.

Sid: Okay this week the devil is doing everything he can to divide Christian marriages; to cause divorce; this week I want to do something that is completely Biblical. That is your teaching series “Where God Has Joined Together.” Why did you do this series?

Gary: Well Sid it was right at a time when God did speak to me to reconcile to my marriage and my wife, and showed me exactly how to do it. Out of that voice of God I taught God’s word clearly and exactly of what to do to see marriages reconciled, restored, and bring healthy marriages to better wholeness, and bring sick marriages to health. The word of God has gone forth, and several thousand series have been sold and people have been changed and lives. Marriages all across the nation the world had been healed, and it’s just wonderful.

Sid: Alright, but what about a marriage that’s not going be divorced because both parties are believers, but they are really on AM and FM living in separate worlds. Will this cause the marriage to be what God wants it to be?

Gary: Absolutely, it will bring them to the same plane of communication because it takes God to intervene in the affairs of man for change to happen. It doesn’t happen because I want it to, it happens because God said it will. When I can identify the word of God that said “Change is here and change is now” it comes into being, and that’s what this series brings to bear.

Sid: I’ve got Paul and Luanne Wilbur here and they’ve been telling me wherever they’re going that glory is showing up. We are featuring their brand new album “The Watchman.” Paul on the album there are a number of songs in Hebrew. Let’s face it most Gentile Christians do not know any Hebrew; why do you have so much Hebrew on “The Watchman”?

Paul: This whole week with you has been tremendous. I always get stirred in my Spirit when I’m around you; whether I’m reading your mail, or we’re speaking about the things of the Lord.

Sid: You’re not gonna read my mail right now are you?

Paul: You never know.

Sid: You never know. That was Bob Dylan’s line, but go ahead.

Paul: Hebrew carries with it a… it’s more than a tradition; it’s more than a legacy; it’s a language of the covenant…

Sid: Listen, the Jewish prophet Zephaniah says “There are only pure things in heaven,” and Hebrew is considered the only pure language because it’s the Biblical language, but go ahead.

Paul: Yes. Even in modern Hebrew when something new is discovered there’s a group of men who have search the scriptures to find something to describe it because it’s got to be in Hebrew. We do this because it’s more than calling our family back to their Jewish roots, there is something of a purity, there is something of a holiness, there is something of an awe that comes through in the Hebrew language. In Deuteronomy 6:4 the Lord spoke and He said “Here oh Israel the Lord our God the Lord is one. Shema Yisrael Adonai Elohaynu Adonai Echad. Love the Lord you God with all of your heart, with all of your soul, with all of your strength, with all of your might.” Yeshua said, and I add to this, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Which was not a new commandment that had been spoken many times, but it was renewed in Him. He gave us, He breathed on us the ability to walk by the power of His Spirit to walk in this supernatural love. So yes, there is a purity, there is an ancientness, there is a covenant, there is a cutting where blood flows. I love about Hebrew I try to infuse all of my recordings with some of this to give more of an understanding, and a flavor and a taste to our friends that listen to the recordings.

Sid: You know in your latest CD you have a beautiful rendition of the “Shema.” Tell me about that tell me the shema.

Paul: Here oh Israel the Lord our God the Lord is one, or the Lord alone. A friend and I wrote that… I’m really delighted Sid that in this recording more than any others I had in the writing of many of these songs. Steve Mirkel a friend of mine from Integrity Music, who also happens to be one of the producers. He and I have written this song Shema Yisrael. I wanted to give more of a…  One of the great challenges that we have is to pass on what we’ve been given to the next generation; the Joshua generation if you will; the Solomon generation those who are coming to take up the kingdom of God; as you and I enter our middle years right now is where I think we’re at…

Sid: Listen, Moshe, Moses lived a 120 if he hadn’t messed up he would have lived longer. We’re not gonna mess up Paul…

Paul: Absolutely we are not messing up, we are watching what we have a covenant together. There is a… I set this because I wanted this next generation; I kind of test these things with my sons who are now 24 and 21. When something’s coming I say “What do you think of this do you like this?” and I’m watching them all the time. If they give me the okay then I feel like I’m on the right path. This is not, you know, the sweet cantorial kind of thing. It’s got a little bit of a drive to it, and a little bit of an edge, but it’s calling it is calling to the house of God to heard the word of the Lord and to obey.

Sid: Get ready to hear the word of the Lord. This is the “Shema” which means “hear” or “listen”.  It’s from the latest album of Paul Wilbur on Integrity it’s called “The Watchman.” Let’s hear that.

Excerpt Shema – Paul Wilbur

Sid: That’s from Paul Wilbur’s latest CD “The Watchman” which I’m so excited about it. It is the highest anointing of anything he has ever done with Integrity Music. Paul, I kid with Paul about this, but when I do the blessing on the Shabbat broadcast which this is the Shabbat, the Friday broadcast I do it in English, then I play Paul Wilbur chanting it in Hebrew. Every says “Sid you have such a wonderful voice.” Just out of curiosity anyone ever tell you your voice sounds, Paul, just like mine?

Paul: You know quite frequently people stop me on the streets Sid and say “Wow you sound like Sid Roth.”

Sid: Anyway I have to confess because liars don’t go to heaven, it’s Paul Wilbur. Would you chant I mean just right now what does the Aaronic blessing benediction mean to you Paul?

Paul: If I can give to you in a nutshell, I found a real joy in teaching this over the last couple of months. People hear this all the time and in churches they would call it he benediction because it’s a good way to go out. The word of the Lord has so much in it Sid, it says… well to set it up the Lord spoke to Moses and to Aaron and He said “When you bless My people” if you are a believer in Yeshua these words that I’m about to declare are for you. The Lord said “When you speak these words” He said “I will bless My people, I will place My name upon them.” Get ready to receive the name of the Lord, get ready to receive the blessing of the Lord which adds no sorrow to it. The words that the Lord spoke are these, He said “The Lord bless you and keep you.” The word “bless” is the word “baruch” and it means imbued by God with power for success, prosperity, long life, and fruitful living. I declare over you the Lord you, the Lord baruch you; give you power for success for breakthrough anointing this year, and the Lord keep you. That word “keep” is the word “shomer” which is watchman. The Lord be the watchman over your life; the Lord will warn you of danger to come; the Lord will declare His coming in your life. The Lord lift up His countenance upon you give you His favor and His peace. [Singing] Y’varechecha Adonai vah’yish-merecha; Ya’er Adonai panav elecha veehunecha; Yisah Adonai Yisah Adonai panav elecha v’yasem l’cha shalom.

Sid: There’s such a shalom settling over this studio right now.

Sid: Can you prophesy over a musical instrument?  Can you get physically healed as a result of listening to anointed music?  Can you get emotionally healed as a result of listening to anointed music?  That’s what’s going on and I want to find out the artist behind the music and I have the artist behind the music. I have on the telephone Theresa Griffith Hurlbert.  I’m speaking to her at her home in Northern California.  Theresa I don’t why but it seems as though when we humans are broken, broken vessels, God uses us more.  I’m wondering why He can’t use us if we’re not broken; it’d be a lot easier wouldn’t it?

Theresa:  It sure seems like it but you know He says “That He uses the weak things to confound the wise, and His strength is made perfect in the weakness.” You know when we are weak He is more glorified because then He gets to show-off as the God that He is you know.  And it seems so many times in our Christian lives that we want to have an effort to show that we’re okay or you know that were good enough.  So I’ve found in my life as I just let go, admit that I’m weak in fact the biggest thing I learned out of all of my suffering that I am nothing, and I can do nothing and that is perfect material for Him to do the impossible.

Sid: And yet I read reviews for instance a representative of Flute Association once said “You possessed techniques that are the best in the world.” So how do you deal with that type of compliments?

Theresa:  Well, because of the fact that I was Chair Flute in every band that I was ever in, and I entered some contests with the Gospel Music Association for a vocal and they said that “We don’t think that you will ever do anything outside of your own local area.”  So what I did is in my nothingness I came before the Lord and offered Him myself as a living sacrifice and said “Okay, I’m not a good flutist, I’m not a good vocalist but will You make me that because I have this desire in my heart that You gave me so, will You show me how.” I did take lessons to show myself approved as well. But you know I had some struggles where I just couldn’t seem to figure out how to accomplish the beauty that I was looking for.  So the Lord said “Yes.”  He gave me dreams to tell me how to play the flute; He downloaded to me because He’s the best expert flute player in the entire world.  He’s the best vocalist and He’s the expert in everything, every field in the earth; So we can actually go to Him in our weakness and say “Will you download to me the expertise in this area?”  And He did He spoke to me one day in the area of flute and said “Do it this way.”  And I tried and then I played before this lady with the National Flute Association and I was practicing a tonguing technique and she said “Do you realize that’s one of the fastest double tonguing techniques in the world, that’s faster than Jean-Pierre Louis Rampal and James Galway and I said “It is?”  Because Jesus had taught me how to do it.

Sid: For those that don’t know what I have in my notes to me you had 25 years of some of the worst abuse a human can have through your marriage.  Within that time you had 10 years of chronic illness; you were bed ridden many times; I still see this pattern of this brokenness of a…there’s a word people don’t like to hear it’s called surrender it’s not part of 21^st century American Christianity. I guess when you come from a background like that you don’t have anything to hold on to.

Theresa: Right.

Sid: Tell me the results of people listening to your music. I know healing rooms are using it; I know hospitals are using it; why are they using it?

Theresa: When I was ill I was bedridden for 5 months at a time I lay there I prayed and say “Lord, when I get well I want to go into the studio and produce music that brings relief to people’s pain body, soul and spirit.”  Because myself I needed soothing music and being a music major I loved music, but in my weakness I was so fragile that noise bothered me, music bothered me but yet I needed something…

Sid: Look how the devil attacks what God wants to use; isn’t that amazing.  Here God’s so anointed your music you could not even listen to music it would disrupt your physical system.

Theresa: Right I just couldn’t find anything soothing enough so I said “Lord when I get well and I know You’re coming for me I want to go in the studio and produce music that brings relief to people’s pain body, soul and spirit.  And so that’s what happened He came in 1998 and healed me and I immediately went into the studio and began to play without music prophetically saying “Jesus will you just come and blow through me.” He did and it was such a goose bumpy experience it’s terrifying at the same time because you have to jump off the cliff not knowing what your first note is, not knowing where the first notes going to go. So I’m in the studio with the pianist and myself.  We at least know the key because I have twelve different instruments and they all have a different key so we know the key but that’s it.  So we begin and He comes in like a rushing mighty wind through my mouth and I can feel it; like a stream of water flowing through me and I get to partake of it as it’s coming through.  And it’s just the highest high I’ve ever had.

Sid: I have listed here various physical conditions that hospitals and healing rooms have found that people have been healed of; they’re blood pressure has lowered; their pain has disappeared and people with insomnia are able to sleep.  As a matter of fact the producer of our radio show started listening to your music at night and she told me a couple of observations.  She can’t fall asleep listening to something, but she fell asleep when she listened to your music; not only did she fall asleep but she had thoughts in areas she hadn’t thought of that were very helpful. Why did this happen?

Theresa:  Well, like I said it’s the Spirit who is playing through me and His anointing is there and so the Spirit speaks to people while they listen to instrumental music and they’re healed. I mean even to the point of a lady got up out of her wheelchair, another lady walked with a walker she could barely walk she started running after she listened. People have…I’ve had several people I think three now have had deafness in an ear and that’s been healed.

Sid: Actually public schools that are playing this for children that have ADD or autism.

Theresa:  Yes, what happens is they’ll be a special education teacher who attends one of my concerts or get’s my music and she decides to use it in her classroom and since there…she uses the instrumentals there are no lyrics to cause the school system to say “Well you can’t play that.”  So the Holy Spirit gets in there and speaks to children and love on them because my instrumentals are like lullabies from Jesus.

Sid: Let’s take a listen to we’re offering too, let’s listen to from the instrumental called “Bliss.”

Instrumental Selection called “Bliss.”  

Sid: Theresa you play 8 different flutes. Is it a little scary going into a studio and not having anything and just play what God shows you?

Theresa:  It was for a long time but I’ve gotten so used to it. The rush of the breath of the Lord blowing through me is so fabulous it’s such a high that I no longer am afraid, but for a long time it was a scary thing.  But in our concerts we do the same thing we do like two – half to three hour concerts and we have done what we call the seat of honor where we invite people to come up and sit in the seat of honor. We show them the twelve instruments and say “Which instrument do you wish to be blessed with?”  They pick the instrument of their blessing; we play them alive prophetic song tailor made for them and then I sing the interpretation by kneeling at their seat holding their hand and an impartation of the Father’s love comes through the eyes and in my voice. And people say “Their lives have been changed and transformed.” In fact it’s so exciting when you watch the person come to sit in the seat you can see what they’ve been through, you can see the crushing.

Sid: By the way did you get what she said?  She plays an instrument and just as someone speaks in tongues she then gives the English interpretation of what she’s played.

Sid: As a matter of fact I can’t understand how someone can even exist in this thing called life if you’re just a lukewarm Christian, I mean you’re mashugah, that’s a Hebrew word for you’re crazy.  I mean there is no other position once you’ve tasted the good things of God go all the way, go for the gold.  And according to the prophet Joel in the second chapter, you’re very familiar with it because that’s also quoted in the New Covenant in the second chapter of Joel 2:28 says “In the last days God’s going to pour out His spirit on all flesh.”  If you haven’t checked lately the thermometer we’re in the last days. He said that “Were going to have dreams and visions.”  And that’s why my guest is Jane Hamon, she is co-Pastor with her husband of Christian International Family Church in Santa Rosa Beach, Florida.  Many of you are familiar with her father-in-law Bill Hamon, a father of prophets if you will.  On yesterday’s broadcast I posed a question, and my question is, yes I do get dreams, and as a matter of fact I have had a couple of dreams that were not symbolic and I have said to God many times…and the ones that were not symbolic I mean they were literal dreams and they were wonderful dreams and it affected my entire future as a result as following it was almost like God told me to do something.  And He did not want me to make any mistakes so He literally showed it to me.  And I thought that was wonderful and I have prayed to God and I’ve said “God, just give me literal dreams and I will do them.”  But most of my dreams Jane are symbolic and I’m just so pragmatic and practical and I question my understanding of these dream. Have you ever felt that way and said “Lord why don’t You just tell me straight on and what is this symbolism business?”

Jane:  (Laughing) I absolutely have felt that way. You know Sid what I realized was that when Jesus came and began to teach the crowds even he taught through symbols because He communicated to the crowds thought things that we’ve come to call parables.  And really the parables are stories that what the scripture has to say many people in the crowd had no idea what He was talking about because they had symbolic messages.  And the truth is that whether we’re reading the Old Covenant or whether we’re reading the New Covenant we have to understand that God has always used symbols to communicate some of the truth that He wants to get across to us.  In the book of Isaiah when it says that we’re going to mount up with wings as eagles as we wait upon the Lord I don’t think that means that were going to sprout feathers and go jumping off of cliffs. (Laughing) I think that God is intending for us to understand that when He speaks to us in a picture that there’s a depth and a wealth of meaning that comes to us whenever we are communicated to in picture form.  A picture is worth a thousand words.

Sid: Listen I have a copy of your book “Dreams and Visions” here it’s a very simplistic, practical Biblical book that answers a lot of questions that I’ll pose to you this week and I’m sure a lot of other people have.  How did you happen to write this book?

Jane:   I felt the challenge really as I have been pastoring a church of very prophetic people that I found that many people were receiving dreams from the Lord but they really had no idea what to do with the dreams they had received.  On the other hand many people were telling me “Well, this one and that one get dreams but I don’t ever get a dream.”  And I believe that scientifically it’s proven that we all dream, I don’t believe that every dream is from God. I believe that there are dreams that are just fleshly or carnal dreams. I believe that there’s demonic dreams I believe that there are dreams that are very much spiritual dreams.  I wanted to write in a simple as form as I could a little bit of guide to help believers prophetic believers that are hearing from God be able to respond to what God is saying in a very proper, a very balanced and a very practical way to be able to aid in their Christian growth, and to be able to really prophetically discern the signs of the times.

Sid: But Jane this is not a book that you just sat down one day and researched, this is almost like a life book message because you not only teach based on the Bible, but you then give experiences and then explain them from the Bible.

Jane:  That’s right you know I had to go back; you know when I started having the experiences of dreams and visions I honestly to be just really honest I never heard one person ever tell me God speaks in dreams.  So I went back and started studying the scriptures, I started looking for dreams, for visions, and for prophecy.  Of course we got the prophets and the major-prophets and the minor-prophets and those are fairly obvious but what I found is that there is actually over 50 references to dreams and visions in the Bible.  And actually the entire foundation of the Jewish race actually came in Genesis chapter 15 when God dealt with a man named Abram who had a vision and then who had a dream.  And God actually cut covenant with Abraham in a dream. So I felt like this was very important to look at as part of our Christian foundation. That if Abraham was communicated within a dream, Jacob and Joseph and Solomon and Daniel and so many others both in the Old Covenant as well as in the New Covenant we find that God has always communicated to His people words of direction, words of comfort, words of insight, words of promise through dreams and through visions.

Sid: You know you quote proverbs 29 verse 18 and then give the Hebrew understanding of it.  Proverbs 29:18 says “Where there is no vision the people perish” but in the Hebrew it means “Where there is no vision or communication from the Lord the people perish.”  That’s strong!

Jane:  That’s a very strong word and I believe that being prophetic is not a sideline issue with God whatsoever.  I mean I believer that being prophetic is very much a mainstream part of our Christian walk, it’s really no optional.  I believe that we need to hear the voice of God, we need to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.  Obviously the written word, but also that that those things that God is uttering forth to us today.  You know in the Old Testament and Numbers chapter 12 verse 6 it says “If there be a prophet among you I will make myself known to him in a vision and I’ll speak to him in a dream.”  But that was during a time when God was really only speaking to a prophet here, or a prophet there to be able to be His mouth piece to His people; to be able to speak His mind and His purposes.  But we’re living in a day where God hasn’t just singled out just a prophet here or a prophet there, but He has an entire prophetic generation that He’s pouring His Spirit out upon.  As He’s pouring His Spirit out upon us we’re receiving power, we’re receiving revelation, and we’re receiving that unction of the Spirit to go out and change the world.

Sid: Now on yesterday’s broadcast, and we didn’t have enough time to pick up on it. You said that some people tell you they don’t dream and yet you said from a physiological viewpoint everyone dreams.  But if someone doesn’t remember their dreams it’s just like not dreaming what should they do?

Jane: Well, some of it is that sometimes we have not because we ask not and if you don’t actually realize that God wants to speak to you in a dream then you would have the approach that I said on yesterday’s program “Oh, it’s just a dream, it’s just an imagination, it’s really has no value for my life.”  But if you recognize that there’s value even when you sleeping that God can be communicating to you and speaking to you about things then you can pray.  What I recognize to people is to pray and ask God to give you a dream, and number two and be able to alert, and I know that that’s hard when you’re sleeping.  But believe it or not you can actually train yourself to sleep in a state of alertness ready to the voice of God.  Now one….

Sid: Now let me ask you a question you talk about having a piece of paper and writing your dream down.  But I don’t like to do that because I’m afraid that will wake me up and I won’t be able to go back to sleep.

Jane:  Well, there is a level of commitment when you are getting used to the concept of remembering your dream and that’s really the problem   Because I remember one time I pray I said “God I really need an answer about a certain situation” and I prayed and asked the Lord about it, and in the middle of the night I woke up and I had the most phenomenal dream.  It answered every question in life I ever asked for and I thought there’s no way…

Sid: I want that dream.

Jane:  (Laughing) I thought there’s no way I’ll ever forget that dream and I rolled over and I went back to sleep and in the morning I knew I had a dream but I couldn’t remember it.

Sid: That would motivate me to want to write it down.

Jane:  You know there is and if you don’t like writing things down I recommend to people maybe keep a little tape recorder that you can just pull off your bedside table, just click it on, just give the details of the dream. In Daniel chapter 7 it says “That Daniel just wrote down the main details of the dream,” you don’t have to go into…

Sid: Okay, you wake up in the morning you remember your dream you don’t have a clue at what God’s saying because it’s one of the symbolic dreams what do you do?

Jane:  Well, what I do is I found a really good pattern in the scripture for kind of breaking a dream down when Jesus gave the parable of the sower of the wheat and the tares. What He did He kind of…He gave them the whole story first, and then He went back and He kind of started breaking it down into bite size pieces.  So what I recommend is write the entire dream, or I want to say, or vision and basically the difference between the two is that the dream happens when your asleep and the vision happens when you’re awake okay. So write it down in its entirety and include the main details, and include the way it made you feel.  Did you feel alarmed? Did you feel at peace? Did you feel like you needed to pray? What did it make you feel? Because sometimes that’s part of God’s alerting spirit.  Then we like to take it and break it down into little symbols, each symbol and I like to make a list down one side of the page.  And then as I write by each symbol maybe the first two or three words that come to my mind.  Now some people say “Well, that’s leaning to the mind” but we have to remember we have the mind of Christ and the thing about symbols that I think is very important for the Body of Christ to understand is that is that there is no book of symbols, I wished that there was.

Sid: Yet, you do list a number of symbols in your book.

Jane:  And I do I list a number of symbols and what I do is I give an understanding of how I arrived at what that symbol meant to me okay. Now…

Sid: You know and this is awful I hate to stop but we’re out of time.