Sid Roth

Sid:  My guest is red hot for the Messiah her name is Vickie Faurie.  I’m speaking to her at her home in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma. I’ll tell ya that if you’d gone through the experience that she had as a 13 year old you’d be red hot for the Messiah too.  A year earlier just out of the blue her body started shutting down; her organs shut down.  She couldn’t eat; she went down to 52 pounds.  The Doctor said “Prepare for her death,” she only had a couple of weeks to live.  There was pain throughout her body; her body was deformed she couldn’t walk; she was totally crippled.  And she went to a Kathryn Kuhlman service and literally the fire of God hit her.  And she was not gradually, she was instantly healed.  She went and had a nice meal; she slept fine.  She not only could walk she ran; before that it was impossible her limbs were deformed.  And so she knows what miracles are.  And yet Vickie Faurie you told me off the air that you were backslidden.  How does someone go from that type of miracle to being backslidden?

Vickie: Well Sid when I received that miracle I was 13 and in between that time I was Baptist and I went to various Baptist churches sharing my message.  Of course the Baptist Church that I was in had to embrace it fully because they saw the before and after.   And a lot at that timeframe did not embrace it and so they didn’t believe it and so for while I did not share my message.  And then I proceeded onward; and I did become… I left the Baptist and I went Assembly of God. But I got mixed up just before I got married with the wrong crowd of people. I’ll tell you it whosever you dwell with and associate with that if you are not strong enough in the Lord they can sway you and I was not strong enough.  And they swayed me; rather than me swaying them they swayed me because I wasn’t anchored enough yet.  I didn’t understand things; I didn’t understand the death position.  I didn’t understand how to deny myself and take up my cross and follow Him.  And I knew I was healed; I knew about the power of God but yet at the same time I was being taught within the religious society that Jesus would accept me no matter what and all I’d have to do is go ask forgiveness and I’d be forgiven and I could do whatever I wanted.

Sid: How does this differ from the Word; share a few scriptures.

Vickie:  Well, the word declares; the one word that really struck out that hit me full force I’m going to share with you.  And it’s in Matthew 7 it’s Jesus speaking in 21.  “Not everyone who says to me ‘Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but only…’” and the Lord had me underline the word only; “Only he who does the will…and then He told me to underline he who does the will.  “Only he who does the will of My Father who is in Heaven.”  Because I was calling Him Lord and He stopped me one day  and He said “Do not call me Lord because I’m not your Lord.”  And I said “But Lord, I started naming things that I had done for His Kingdom.”  He said “You did nothing for you are nothing; I’d done all of those things and I can use a donkey.”  He said “I want you to know I only use yielded empty vessels.”

Sid: You know I’ve read these scriptures the same ones you’re quoting and everyone that’s a true believer has read these scriptures.

Vickie:  Hmm, hm.

Sid: And somehow because very few people are walking in such union with God; and that’s what the word is. So few Christians have died to self that you let it slide by.  I have a question for you “Are we waiting for God to change us or is God waiting on us?”

Vickie: He’s waiting on us.  God changes not; He’s the same yesterday today and forever.    It’s are we changing; we have to become the bride without spot wrinkle or blemish.  We have to be purified; sanctified; holy; totally yielded to Him.

Sid: I have to ask you this question; you understand this now you are not backslidden now.  Do you feel like you’ve sacrificed a lot by dying to self?  Do you feel like you’ve missed important things in your life by sacrificing to self?

Vickie:  No.  Really the death to self-position when you have the Holy Spirit and Jesus and everything within you it’s worth more than anything else in the world.  There’s nothing that can compare to when you die to self to know how much you love God; how sweet Jesus is, and the love of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.  I mean all of that you can’t measure it.  If you were to take and put it and measure it it far outweighs the balances of anything the world itself has to offer.

Sid:  As best you can describe this Vickie “What is your understanding of dying to self?”

Vickie:  Total surrender of your will to the Father’s will.  Really it’s where you no longer; you submit yourself into the Makers hand. I mean it’s no longer you that is in control. You’re no longer telling the maker how to mold you; how to make you; how to form you; how to create you.

Sid: Your telling me that you’re going to be in a totally satisfied state ,whereas in the world in the natural, if you’re an alcoholic or a drug addict you have to keep getting stronger alcohol the stronger alcohol or stronger drugs to be satisfied.  But you’re saying you’re walking in such union with God that you’re totally satisfied.

Vickie: Yes, exactly and utter peace.  There’s a peace that passes literally your understanding.  There’s a deep peace and joy unspeakable.  I mean when Jesus said “he only came to say and do the will of the Father for a long time I couldn’t understand that scripture.  I couldn’t understand why Jesus came in the form of mankind.  I know He came to die for us but why; why, why did He come and live His life as man in total complete submission counting Himself as nothing?  He was showing us that if we would just submit to the Maker and do the will of the Father that is where everything… that is where everything flows.  There’s a river of peace as you lay yourself upon the altar of sacrifice and you sacrifice yourself and you give everything.  There’s a peace that just cannot be described.  There’s a love for all of all mankind and you love them with everything that’s within you.

Sid: And you know what you sound like?  I come from a Jewish background and you sound like you’re living what in Judaism is called the Sh’ma. It’s Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear Oh Israel the Lord our God; the Lord is One.  And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart; all your mind; all your strength.”  And then there’s another verse which Jesus couples with that when He was asked “How do you fulfill the law?”  Jesus said the Sh’ma and then He said “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”  And I’ll tell you candidly Vickie I have been praying that every day that I’d be able to walk in that because to me that’s the ultimate. That’s what Jesus said.

Vickie:  That’s right and all you have to do.  And so many times I would get up and I prayed one simple prayer for a long time and I said “Lord give me a heart like Your Son where I’ll walk according to Your will and I’ll love just like He loved”  unconditionally.

Sid: But did it hurt; did you suffer in a real bad way to get to this point?

Vickie:  I’ll be truthful with you Sid.

Sid: Please.

Vickie:  First it was very difficult and God told me “I’m going to strip you down to nothing.  If you want this it may cost you everything you have.”

Sid: Now I don’t want to get too personal but can you give me an example of what you lost.

Vickie: Well the enemy of course when you enter into this arena the principality powers and rulers of darkness are going to fight. I’m not going to let somebody believe that they’re not in for a battle.  But at the same time the victory is yours in Christ Jesus.  The cost of it in reference to certain things Satan tried to make us in a number of things make it look like we were going to be destroyed. That everything was going to be taken away.  And I would fervently stand and pray to God; the seeking Him in reference to a certain attack. If it were my children; if it was my youngest child or my oldest child or my daughter-in-law or even up until recently he even attacked my grandson.  I would pray fervently on their behalf.      

Sid: Who won?

Vickie:   God.

Sid: Okay we’re out of time Mishpochah…

Sid: You know it’s kind of difficult in 21^st Century America because the gospel has been so watered down just because the discipleship has been so watered down; that I just recently read Charisma Magazine and I saw an article in here that peaked my interest written by a man that I’ve interviewed previously.  The title of the article is “Why Isn’t the American Church Growing?”  The author, Kevin Turner president of Strategic World Impact.  He works in primarily 3 areas; war zones; disaster areas, and where Christians are being persecuted.  Kevin where am I speaking to you from right now?

Kevin:  Well, I’m calling you from Africa, the continent of Africa.  I’m right on the border of Sudan where we’ve been working now for actually here for almost 10 years, from this area the last 5 years.

Sid:  Now listen; I have a problem with the watered down discipleship; seeker sensitive Christianity in America.  If I have a problem I imagine you have a bigger problem; how did we get from the Book to what we have?

Kevin: Well, I think one of reasons is just simply the fact that people thought that by lowering the bar; lowering the bar of discipleship that we could possibly increase the numbers.  And it’s indicative of our society because when you talk to a pastor or anyone else, the church leader the first thing they want to tell them is how big their church is.  We’re not interested in quantity; I’m interested in quality.  And what I see all the time is we’re just fascinated with the showmanship of everything.  So to do that we have to have these secret sensitive churches that literally alienate and destroy the very foundations of the Word of God so that we can have these want-to-be disciples that truly have never been born again!

Sid: But you know what, I think many have been born again but they stay babies.

Kevin:  Well, all I know two things that are indicative of a baby; when that baby comes out of its mother’s womb 1: he’ll cry and 2: he longs for milk.  Peter said “As new born babes desire the sincere milk of the word.”  And I have hard time believing that we can call people that say that they are born again that they have no desire to be in fellowship; they have no desire for the word of God; they don’t cry out to the father or mother. See what I mean; they’re not crying to Father God saying “God touch me; fill me; cleanse me; purify me.”  So there are no signs other than this; we teach them how to be religious; we teach them how to pray; we bribe them to come to church; we pick them up and bring them there; we take them to lunch afterwards.  And really what we have is flesh born of flesh; it’s not spirit born of the Spirit.

Sid: In America it’s an unreal moment in history.  There has never been a country where the average person is as prosperous, almost lives not almost, lives like a king of former generations.  We basically don’t have any persecution.  Yes we had 911 but basically we’re like in a bubble.   I want you to tell me a bit about what’s going on in the rest of the world.

Kevin:  Well, first of all let me address the whole issue of persecution.  Scripture plainly states in Timothy that anyone who desires to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.  And unfortunately most American’s do nothing with that verse; it’s almost as if it were never written.  I believe that even in America you can live your life in such a red hot way; such a passionate way that you do receive persecution.  Now it may not be the same as Sudan, or Saudi Arabia, or Naro Trayo, or many of the countries that I’ve worked in but there’s alienation.  I think one of the big things I see is that we don’t want to see our good reputation.  We don’t want to be thought less of than what we think we’re worth.  But what I see around the world is the contrast to that.  I mean we’re baptizing Muslim converts who were fundamentalists.  That what baptism means to them is more than being buried with Christ in baptism and raised to walk in newness of life through the power of the Holy Spirit.  It means the threat of death, it means utter alienation from your family; it means that husbands can have their wives taken away.  It means their children can be taken away.  It means that Jesus becomes their all and all.

Sid: Let me read a short paragraph from your article “Why Isn’t the American Church Growing?”  A Chinese Christian recently visited the United States and toured churches here.  At the end of the trip he was asked what American spirituality?  He answered “I’m amazed at how much the church in America can accomplish without the Holy Spirit.”

Kevin:  Yeah; unfortunately that tends to be the case and I think…

Sid: That reminds me of a top Christian television personality that fell and ended up in prison and I went to visit him in prison.  And I talked about some of the large media ministries in the United States and I said “You know they’ve to be from God because look how big they are; look at how big they’re growing so much!”  And he looked at me and he almost laughed and he said “Listen, when you’ve got the gifting from God you can build any size organization that you want to and God doesn’t even have to be in it.”

Kevin:  That’s correct.

Sid:  It’s sad.

Kevin:  Unfortunately, you just hit a heartstring of mine because I believe that many of the ministers of America in my own heart believe me this thing lurks.  Where we literally have the potential to prostitute the graces of God.  In other words, God touches us His gifts and call are without repentance.  He desires through love to touch us that we might be used for His glory but what happens in the end  we’re building our own kingdoms we’re prostituting His graces and in the end we’re lifted up in pride, we come under the same condemnation as the devil and we’re pushed from His presence.  And I believe that part of the key to why America isn’t experiencing revival one of the reasons is that simply God can’t trust us with His Holy Spirit.  I remember one time I was praying and in fact I was asking the Lord about healing for certain people and I’m in the shower taking a shower and getting all cleaned.  And really basically what I’m doing is trying to get the Lord to use me to heal some people and I remember he spoke to me so gently and it cut me like a knife He said “Kevin would you want those people to be healed if nobody knew you were involved?”

Sid: Hmm; that nails you. (Laughing)

Kevin:  My heart was broken; you know what’s the sense of glory if you don’t get any of it right?  And this is the thing that can affect my heart; that can affect your heart.  The battle that I face as a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ isn’t failure; the battle I face is success.  I remember one time we were shipping supplies into Serbia.  They were under sanctions; they were under Resolution 724 with the UN and I had special clearance to ship in medical supplies and various things.  And I was billed as the wonder boy; boy if anyone could get it in Kevin could.  And I remember that my containers was sitting in Piraeus, Greece one of the largest shipping ports in the world. I’m supposed to get these things up to Serbia.  I had 2 weeks and I was going to travel through there and fly out of Budapest.  Well nothing was moving; I’m staying at this old Bible School as the top floor and again and again nothing moved day after day.  I spent over $24,000, I was personally in debt and literally each day here’s what I noticed my prayers at the end of the day got shorter and shorter.  And finally I came down crawled up those stairs; fell down on that creaky wooden floor just me and Jesus and I prayed one of the truest prayers I ever prayed in my life.  All I said was this “Why?”  The Lord spoke to me as clear as a bell, He said “Kevin you don’t want those containers in there for those people you want those containers in there so you look good.”  And this is what the Lord taught me and I pray to God I never forget.  He said “You know what Kevin, everybody wants to be My personal success story.”

Sid: Hm.

Kevin:    But nobody’s interested in being a failure for me.  And there on that floor all alone in Greece I had a good old fashion death, burial, and resurrection.  And before Jesus I saw my arrogance and my vanity and my pride.  And I cried out “From this day forward I resign myself to be content to be your personal failure.” And what I mean by that is not that God destroys everything around you it’s that your content not to look good.  It’s that you’re content to be faithful whether the world applauds you or not.  So success is the biggest danger that I have ever seen in my life.  So unfortunately, this corporate world mentality has consumed the average pastor because he’s sees a couple mega-churches on TV and they logged themselves as the next approach.  And the next thing you know every bodies lining up and your making these gospel puppet preachers who have no unction; no   anointing of the Holy Spirit because they’ve just looked at a program or a method.  But the Bible said “God calls a man.”  And this is what I see in my own heart and the nation; this is the thing that I see, and it breaks my heart.

Sid: Mishpochah I’m speaking to Kevin Turner President of Strategic World Impact.  He works in war zones and disaster areas or areas where Christians are being persecuted.  Knowing how he lays his life on the line; his family’s life on the line because they’re with him on the field.  And hearing how broken he is and how repetitive he is (Woe is me).  You know what Isaiah stood before the throne he says “Woe is me I’m undone; I’m an unclean man amongst an unclean people; I’ve seen the King.”

Sid: We are playing selections from “Song of Angels Volume I and Volume II” by Freddy Hayler.  And Freddy tell me about that Al Qaeda terrorist that literally got saved from your music.

Freddy:  Well, I got a very strange echo call with a man with a very strong Arabic accent calling me from Afghanistan. You know it was an amazing phone call it was 2:00 in the morning 3:00 in the morning. And he was saying how he had a vision in a dream of Jesus listening to this music and he called it Jesus music.   He didn’t call it Song of Angels.  And he said “He had gotten saved and that the Lord had come to him in a vision in a dream 2 nights straight and that he had accepted Christ as his savior and his whole family.  And he explained that he was a terrorist, Al Qaeda affiliate, and he was in Afghanistan and that they were planning some attacks and he was full of love and he didn’t want to hurt anyone any longer.  And later I heard that he had snuck out of Pakistan via England; and now I hear he’s in the United States and I need to follow up on that.  But we have had a lot of testimonies like this of people from the Middle East meeting Christ through the music and God just using it as a wedge because it’s a 10/40 window and it’s a tough mission field to crack.  It’s actually death penalty to hand out Christian tracks in some of these countries and so it supersedes that and transcends that.

Sid: Now I want people to get to know you a little bit; it seems as though people that have strong calls of God on their life the devil tries to snuff their life out before they even get started.  But let me take you back to age 5; you had a reoccurring dream; what was that?

Freddy:  Yes, it seems like each night or every other night and I had a reoccurring dream of me being caught up in the stars of Heaven and seeing the multicolor stars; they were multicolored.  And I would actually see 3-dimensional notes, musical notes skipping along these stars. These beautiful sounds; theatrical sounds that sounded Heavenly to me or peaceful.  And they were just beautiful multicolored notes and stars; and it just seemed like they were from Heaven.  But I didn’t know at the time what it meant and it was just symbolism of some kind that God was giving me as a very very young person.

Sid: And I think that the devil might have heard it too because at age 11 you’re on a row boat and you’re 2 miles off shore and you fall out of the boat and your drowning. How in the world were you rescued?

Freddy:  That is probably the greatest miracle even to think about it I shudder because you know I was showing off to someone in the boat how fast I could row and I fell backwards.  And the current up there is very fast and the water is 60 degrees or below.  And so you can get hypothermia real fast. Kind of idiotically as a kid I dove off the boat to get the oars and by the time I got the oars the boat had floated far away.  And after about 10 minutes of trying to doggy paddle I just started to go under the water.  And as I started to go under the water I started to see lights and I thought; “This is it I’m dying.”  And all of a sudden I felt the pressure on my hair pulling me up. And I was pulled up to the surface by this man who came out of nowhere.  And he just dragged me to shore 2 miles in and when I got to the beach I was revived.  I went to thank the man and he looked like someone I had known before but he’d left.  And the woman were all around me and they were saying “We were praying for you, we saw you struggling we thought you drowned; the angels were with you today that must have been an angel.”  And that was all I could remember and I thought wow; maybe that was an angel but I never met him again.

Sid: I don’t know I think you might have met him again at age 15; you’re into drugs you’re a rock musician and you take an overdose and you’re driving in a car and what happened?

Freddy:  So we were going around this curve at 50 miles an hour and I was overdosed on this very powerful drug and the car door swung open and I fell out the door on to hard concrete going over 50.  And angels I knew just picked me up and prevented me from getting injured because I had no injuries but just a couple small scratches.  I actually stopped breathing as well, and then came the vision of Jesus and I was quickly resuscitated.  So you know the police and my family were surprised by it all but it was a miracle.

Sid: Tell me about the song “Holy Spirit Please Come” from your album “Song of Angels.

Freddy: Well, Jesus says in John 16 that He’s is going to give us another Comforter; you know the Paraclete the one to come along side and help us in everyday life continuously 24-7 and He’s our best friend and He’s the one that speaks Jesus and that glorifies Him. And you know it’s just a song about being filled with the Holy Spirit and being baptized in the Spirit of Elijah and the Spirit of Fire, and drawing closer to the Lord in this hour as His bride.  And it talks about purifying our hearts and how gentle He is and how He wants to fill us with His blessings, and His peace and His joy and His righteousness.

Sid: What does the pure worship that I’m hearing in your music; what does that attract from Heaven?

Freddy:  Well, I truly believe that it attracts the presence of the Holy Spirit; the presence of His angels because all the angels in Heaven praise Him.  All the stars of Heaven sing for joy and they love when you worship God it’s the highest form of intercession, Andrew Murray said and E.M. Bounds.  They said that prayer is the highest form of intercession and adoration and worship. And so if it’s the highest form of prayer, worship.  Then you’re going to be joined by the heavenly host and feel their presence. You’re going to feel the presence of the Holy Spirit.

Sid: Do you feel the angels the angels are singing right along with your; I’m curious.

Freddy:  Yes, and when I sing I actually have heard angels sing with loud clarion voices and they’re beautiful beyond description.

Sid: Okay, from Songs of Angles. “Holy Spirit Please Come.”

Sid: I have on the telephone my sister Shirley and my brother-in-law Marc who have made Aliyah. They have immigrated to Israel and there’s no reason they should have gone short of what you’re going to hear especially with the life they had in America.  Especially with what is going on in Israel right now.  They were successful she retired as a school teacher at Montgomery County Maryland and one of the wealthiest counties in the United States.  Good retirement program, my brother-in-in-law Marc retired from the government Customs Service.  Good retirement program; they have savings, they have 3 children 2 are married; they have grandchildren; they have wonderful children; they have wonderful family and their financially independent these are the wonderful, most wonderful years of their life to look forward to be with their children and grandchildren.  And all of a sudden my sister who never remembers dreams had such a vivid dream.  Out of curiosity Shirley were you thinking about going to Israel when you had that dream?  Were you planning on it?

Shirley:  No, we had no plans at all to move to Israel; we did love Israel; we had been there a few times in fact our youngest son was bar-mitzvah’ed in Israel, but we never thought in a millions years we’d move to Israel until we had this dream.

Sid: Tell me the dream again.

Shirley:  Okay, well when I said we had this dream my husband agreed with the dream.    The dream was Marc turns to me in the dream and says “Shirley we have to go to Israel now.”  And I said “Okay, that’s fine, however we’ll go in a year from now; we’ll sell our house, we’ll cash in on our assets our stocks, bonds, all our annuities and we’ll go to Israel.”  He turns to me and says “Shirley, we have to go now!”  And I started getting a little anxious in the dream and I said “Well, how about 6 months from now? We can sell our house at least and go with some of our money.”

Sid: By the way my sister has a very very practical side; go ahead. (Laughing)

Shirley:  (Laughing) You know I was saying this in the dream, “We’ve saved all our lives for our retirement and how can we just leave it here we have to cash some of it in.  And Marc turns to me again and says “No, we have to go now!”  And I really got anxious and again I went through the scenario; “Let’s wait just two months, you know cash in something.”  And then Marc says to me “Shirley you are putting your trust in your money, and not in God.”  And something in the Spirit just clicked in the dream and I said “You’re right I was trusting our money rather than God.”  And at that point we each picked up just one suitcase; we held hands and we went running to the plane for Israel.  I looked behind me and I saw fires; I saw rioting going on, I knew my life was in danger.  I felt somebody was chasing us and I was running with all my might to that plane to get out of the United States and we just made the last plane to Israel.  And that’s when I woke up and I woke up I was actually huffing and puffing like I had actually ran in that dream.  So and then afterword’s when I discussed this dream with Marc we felt God was telling us we should start preparing to go to Israel.  And we were both in agreement with it and you know the dream also made us think of Jeremiah 16:16 where it says “God says I will first send fisherman and then I will send the hunters.”  And I felt the hunters were after us and we were running with everything we had to get away from them.  So that’s when we started making plans and we started going to Israel looking for a place to maybe invest some money there at first. And then God showed us we should start our citizenship while we were there.

Sid: Do you remember a brother-in-law when he heard that dream he said, “You got to go, you have to go yesterday.”  Every time I would walk up to you I would say that because God knows we’re all made different.  Here’s the way I operate “I have a dream, I will do what that dream says the second I get it.  My sister on the other hand is the more conservative, practical person, planning things out.  But all of your conservatism every one of your friends was shocked when you told them you were moving to Israel.

Shirley: Especially our sons they couldn’t believe it.

Sid: Yeah, and by the way one son is an engineer an attorney; he has a top very high government job.  Another son, is a dentist and another son has a wonderful job with the federal government.  They’re all successful.

Shirley: Sid you don’t know this but he’s just enrolled in an MBA program; he’s getting his Master’s now.

Sid: And with your grandchildren I mean I don’t think anything short of God could have caused you to leave your family Shirley.

Shirley: In the natural why would we want to leave we love them so much; we’re a very close family.  God just gave us both my husband and myself such a desire.

Sid: Now when you decided to go when you finally made up your mind you put your house on the market; how long did it take to sell?

Shirley:  (Laughing) Well, let me preface this first before I tell you.  Our Real Estate Agent told us one price what we should sell out house for and we prayed about it and felt we should ask for like 40,000 more, it was ridiculous.

Sid: $40,000 more!

Shirley: We said “Put it on the market for this amount.”  She said “It will never sell.”  We said “We’ll try it for a week and if it doesn’t sell we’ll change it.”  You know our house sold in 1 day!

Sid: Tell, me what you recall, you cut all your ties; said all your goodbye’s no one believes that you’re going that you’ll turn around and come back.  Number 1 how long ago was that?

Shirley:  Three years ago.

Sid: Number 2 “When it’s final you’re on the El Al jet and your flying to Israel; you have cut all your ties.

Shirley:  Sid, can I go back just one little thing I need to tell you; when we made Aliyah it was at the peak of the Intifada, there was suicide bombings there every single day; sometimes more than one a day.

Sid: Wait a second; remember that girl 30 years earlier with that demon of fear do you remember that?  You should have been fearful!

Shirley:  I turned to Marc like a week before we were to go and I said “Maybe this isn’t the right time to go; you know common sense says you don’t go into a war zone.”  And that’s how the news was presenting it; it’s like a war zone over there and fear started coming on me.  I was thinking “Maybe we should wait until it dies down a little bit and not so many suicide bombings over there.”  And so Marc and I prayed about it and we went to bed and we woke up the next morning and you know “All fear left me.”  And I looked at Marc and said “No, this is when we’re supposed to go; I just no it.”  And I felt God was saying “There are other believers over in the land who are fearful too because of the suicide bombings and because God took away all that fear from me that was trying to come on me we should lay hands on other believers who are fearful who are in the land and they also would be relieved of that fear if wouldn’t bother them anymore.”

Sid: Okay, you’re on that El Al jet

Shirley: Hm hm.  

Sid:  You’ve cut all your ties you’re walking into what appears to be a war-zone.  What’s going on inside of you?

Shirley:  We are as excited as can be this is our biggest adventure with God that we’ve ever had.  We feel like God has sent us there; we’re not even 100% sure now why we’re there but we know…

Sid: Oops we’re out of time… I want to pick up right here on tomorrow’s broadcast.

Sid:  If you’ve been listening to me all this week you know why I’m red hot for the Messiah.  I cannot relate to a backslider; if you only knew what was back there you  would run and get so tight with Jesus that nothing would separate you from the love of God but you can certainly separate yourself because God is a holy God.  That’s why He says “Be ye holy for I am holy saith the Lord God.”  And I was one unholy mess.

A Jewish man that had left his wife; separated from my wife; left my daughter separated from my job.  Went searching for happiness; found myself in the New Age in a pit that I could not get out of and no one else could help me get out of it.  When there was nowhere else to go I cried out to God “Jesus help.”  And I didn’t have a vision; I had all sorts of stuff like that in the New Age.  Jesus didn’t come visit me; I had all types of manifestations in the New Age.  I had something that was never offered me in the New Age.  I experienced the peace and the glory of the Spirit of God.  I experienced being cleansed by the Spirit of God. And I knew that I knew that I knew that Jesus rescued me.  That I knew; that I knew; that I knew; that Jesus was my Messiah.  Don’t even ask me how I knew it; I can just tell you that I knew it.  And then I heard for the first time in my life the audible voice of God.  What He said was “Return to your wife and daughter.”  I had been separated for a year and I didn’t want to do it because our marriage wasn’t good.  But I was so grateful to God; He saved my life; He rescued me.  I’d be dead, or in an institution, or in prison today if it wasn’t for Jesus.  And to whom much is given much is required.  And I returned go my wife and daughter and God restored my marriage.

We started one of the first Messianic Jewish congregations in the United States.  A group of young Jewish people that were believers in Jesus.  We didn’t know anything.  We hadn’t even read the whole New Testament but we started this and it’s still going on today.  And in this Messianic congregation we hired our first Rabbi his name was Manny Brotman.  And he began presenting Jesus from the Old Testament. Although my wife was Southern Baptist she rejected all of that and became an agnostic in college with all the atheistic professors.  And then she converted… when we got married I insisted she convert to Judaism and she converted to Orthodox Judaism.  But she didn’t know Jesus; well I dragged her literally to this Messianic congregation and week after week Manny would say “Look at the scriptures written thousands of years before the events actually transpired. Look at the Jewish people; here God’s says that we would lose our country because of sin, we’d be scattered to the four corners of the earth.  Wherever we would go people would persecute us for being Jewish. And yet we would not assimilate there would still be a distinct people group called the Jewish people.  In the latter days Isaiah asked a rhetorical question “Could a nation be formed in a day?”  And from the 4 corners of the earth the Jewish people which God miraculously preserved would return to their homeland.  And all this has happened before our very eyes.  I mean 100’s of predictions about the Jewish people all came true.  And then 100’s of predictions about the Messiah of Israel and it could only be Jesus.

When Isaiah 53 was read; written 800 years before Jesus came to earth.  Anyone with a fair mind reads that; that’s why it’s not read in the synagogues but it’s certainly in the Jewish scriptures; Isaiah 52.  It’s really interesting Isaiah 52 is read in the traditional synagogue and Isaiah 54 is read in the traditional synagogue but no Isaiah 53. It nails Jesus as the Messiah.  My wife said “I must believe.  It’s overwhelming that Jesus is the Messiah,” and she had her own encounter.  And so God restored my marriage.  I mean the devil was out to kill and steal and destroy everything decent within me. And he almost succeeded. He wanted to destroy my mind; he almost did it.  He wanted to destroy my marriage.  He almost did it; he wanted to destroy my daughter.  He almost did it; well ha, ha the two word prayer “Jesus Help.”  Let me tell you what happened.  Joy and I got back together; we have been married 42 years.  My daughter is a strong believer in the Messiah; married to a godly man and has given us 3 beautiful granddaughters.  I got my mind back; I got peace; I walk in the presence of God all the time.

I’m doing the most wonderful thing a human can do; I’m telling everyone everywhere that Jesus is real; He’s bigger than the Jesus that you know about through religion.  It’s not a head knowledge; it’s a heart knowledge.  It’s not a tradition learned by rote; that’s what I had in Judaism; traditional Judaism.  It’s intimacy with God where I hear His voice.  He said “My sheep hear my voice” and I heard just a few minutes ago about some of you.  I heard that God had healed some of you.  I heard that there was someone with a severe pain in their neck.  And by the way this happened before today.  This happened while you were listening to the broadcast this week.  And you got healed and didn’t even know that it was God.  Well, I’m telling you it was God it’s not me; look at me as a good Jewish secretary.  And I take good dictation from my Heavenly Father.  And so you were healed earlier this week. But I tell you there is a presence of God that is going out over the airwaves right now that is so strong that no pain can stand in its presence.  Spirit of pain get off that back right now.  Get off that hip in Jesus Name; get off those fingers in Jesus Name; get off that shoulder, in Jesus Name. Get off that head spirit of migraine be gone now instantly in Jesus Name. And pour your love; You’re healing virtue just; pour it into Your people right now.  And cause them to repent of known sin.  That means tell God you’re sorry and ask Him for the power in Jesus Name to overcome that compulsion in your life.  In Jesus Name I break every curse up to 4 generations.

I tell you it’s so strong in back and heads right now. If you have tumors in the brain I say they’re gone.  I say if you have tumors anywhere in your body. Cancer anywhere in your body it is gone in Jesus Name.  Oh God you are so good.  There is nothing I would rather be doing than telling people about God and how good He is.

That’s why I’ve written my latest book “The Race to Save the World.” In this book I show the last move of God’s Spirit before Jesus returns.  It’s the knitting together of Jewish people and Christians that know the Messiah to form the One New Man.  And when this occurs there will be a release of such glory.  I have found that there’s actually Biblical laws of evangelism that the church has been blind to.  That when the church moves in these Biblical laws of evangelism watch the largest Gentile harvest in history.  When the church starts moving in these Biblical laws of healing; what the greatest healing revival in history. You see the biggest problem we have is the form of our religion because it’s based on a super star system that came right from the Emperor of Rome.  Passed on to the Catholic Church and then infected the Protestant church. Christianity went from a vibrant religion to a spectator sport.  But I tell you each one of us are going to be moving in the power of God.  The least Christian will move in the supernatural and this is God’s time; this is your time.  Repent of your sins; make Jesus your Lord; walk in holiness, and read your Bible.

Sid: I had a divine appointment a friend of mine who is a pastor contacted our office and said “Sid, I have a Prophet that’s in my church that’s the real thing, I want you to come and hear him speak.”  I went to his church and I met Jose Santana and he prophesied a few things over me and it remains to be seen whether they come to pass, and time will tell. However, Jose you did something that I’ve never seen before you took a look… I happened to have a picture of one of my 3 granddaughters. This is the middle one and she’s one of these children that knows what she wants and will not change her mind, she instantly knows. I mean I’ve never seen a little one even when she’s two years old she was like this.  And you looked at her picture and you said that exactly.  And then you also said that she will be given a gift of music.  Now when you said to me what you did and I know that was accurate. Now I’m told that this happens many times when you look at pictures of people you know things about what will happen in the future and about them currently.  How do you know this, do you hear it, do you see it; take this case.  We were having lunch and I pulled a picture out and you tell me this; explain to me what’s going on inside of the man.

Jose: I’m glad you asked usually what do is I inquire of the Holy Spirit of God and I look at the picture as a place of contact.  Just like the Apostle Paul will have handkerchief and would give them to the people and they will get healed.  But in this particular application I look at the picture and I look at the face and I look at the eyes and I asked the Holy Spirit to begin to give me the inside, the makeup likes and the dislikes of the person.  Right away the Word of the Lord just begins to come out of my belly and that’s how.

Sid: Now did you have the whole thought and then speak it out; or did you just speak it out as sort of like a good secretary word for word; as you hear one word you speak one word?

Jose:  I’m glad you asked; usually there’s two ways of process.  It comes from the belly to your mouth and out, that’s in the spirit.  And the carnal mind goes from the belly to the mind to the lips.  So it’s starts by human and I don’t like that I said “Lord just allow the word of God to come from my belly whatever information You’re giving me and be released.  I know that it’s not of mind because I don’t know the people that I see through pictures or in meetings.

Sid: I want to learn more about this gift it really intrigues me and it says in the Bible that we should all prophesy.

Jose:  Yes.

Sid:  So that means that we all should be intrigued by this particular gift.  But I said one other thing at lunch that was troubling me.  You’re one of the first prophets that I’ve said this to that I believe that doesn’t mean that we’re both right.  But you did say what I believe.  I have many prophets that say “You have to believe the prophetic word or it to come to pass.  And if it didn’t come to pass that’s because you didn’t believe it.” And you said to me “If God says it it’s going to happen.”

Jose:  Absolutely.

Sid: Jose I see that as a cop-out an excuse when things don’t happen.

Jose:  I believe that too, I fear the Lord so much that I only speak what He allows me to speak and those things that He’s shown me in the Spirit that is the only thing I share with people.  And I always tell people “I’m not that bright like people with masters and all of these degrees but by the Spirit when He revealed and He speaks to me it is so clear.” It’s so profound that I could not help but to share what the Word of the Lord.

Sid: Now I want to see a little bit, I see the man I want to see what God has done with you.  There was a point and you were not a believer in the Messiah and it seemed as though everything was going wrong in your life.  You had the dishonorable profession of being a drug dealer.

Jose: Yes.

Sid: Using drugs.

Jose:  Right, right

Sid: But everything was coming apart; tell me about it.

Jose:  Oh my, about 25 years ago I left Puerto Rico and moved to New York City and I was poor with a neighborhood and I met some people that was the time of the hippy era and I starting to do a little marijuana and then some other things escalated to heavy drugs.  And then I met other people and we started selling drugs and so forth and I made a mess of my life.  I hit bottom and I almost killed myself in a car accident and I went in the wrong direction, and my family was praying for me.  And one of them said “Can you come to church with us?”  And I said “I tried everything else and it didn’t work.” So I said “Let’s go to church and see what happens.”  And a regular guy sitting there in the 2^nd service gave me a Word of Knowledge.”  I didn’t know what a Word or Knowledge was all about and he said “Jesus Loves you.”  And I go “This guy is wrong, all the wicked things that I have done, all the sinful things that I have done in my life; and how could Jesus love me.”  So I got out of the chair and I took 2 steps and out of my belly rivers of living waters and the peace of God that passes all understanding hit me.  And I said “Lord, who shall I share this experience?”  He said “Call your wife.”  So I called my wife, she said “Calm down, calm down you’re too excited.”  And I go “Honey, I tried drugs, I tried alcohol and I did the things that are wrong and that didn’t get me excited now this thing about Jesus.”  So she kept an eye on me and 3 months later she says, “I don’t know what you have but I want what you got.”  And she got born again and sanctified by the blood of the Lamb.  And 3 years later God began to give me visions in the church.

Sid:  Wait a second Jose, they prayed for you you had this wonderful feeling.  Did you speak in unknown tongues at that time?

Jose:  No, no.

Sid: Okay but you had this, you had all sorts of feelings with drugs and you were a dealer but this was something far better than anything than you’ve ever had.

Jose:  The love of God, the joy drew me to His presence.  I was a person who didn’t like to read any book. So 3 or 4 months later He gave me the desire to read the Bible.  And it would be 8 or 10 hours a day that I would be crying on the floor reading the Bible.

Sid: Now I have a question.  Your wife must have thought we Jewish people have a word called mashuga.

Jose:  Yes. 

Sid: Your wife must have thought that you had gone mashuga, crazy. (Laughing)

Jose: Absolutely but the craziness that she saw in me was good because I became home-bound and respectful to all things my work area, my relationship with my wife; relationship with my pastor.  My relationship with all of the people around it changed, it was a process. 

Sid: Can you picture what had happened to you if you had not had that encounter with Jesus the way you were headed.  You’d probably would be dead now or in prison.

Jose:  The Lord showed me a dream that some people were looking to kill me and gave me the name the automobile that they drove.  But I did not know nothing about the gift; to me it was just a regular dream and I was going crazy.  And I was going “What can I do with this thing?”  And that was my turn around I believe to come out of Egypt into the things of God.  But everything that I know about the Lord it is a process; it is not overnight. As you yield to God and begin to fellowship with Him and read His word and obey His word, then your inside begins to change.

Sid: Now how many years ago did this happen?

Jose: Over 25 years ago.

Sid: I have a question, you’re still very tender over this.  I see tears welling up in your eyes, this happened so long ago; why are you still tender over this Jose.

Jose:  The Bible declared “To whom much has been forgiven much love.”  And I know that I was destitute to go to hell because of my lifestyle. I am so grateful every day that He saved my soul.  Not the gift, the gift is something that He gives to whoever He wants to that’s what the Bible says.  But just the relationship that He has with me.

Sid: You know Jose a number of years ago I had a dream from God.  My kind of dream is one that is literal and in this dream God told me to do something and He knows me.  I did it the moment He told me.

Jose:  Yes.

Sid: And He told me to do a book it made no sense.

Jose:  Hm.

Sid: But He knows better.

Jose:  Yes.

Sid:  And so I wrote a book and they called it “They Thought For Themselves

Sid:  Mishpochah and it means family; isn’t that what God’s all about He’s building a family see God has a Father’s heart of love and He wants to be your Father.  He loves you so much; if no one has ever told you this before I tell you right now in God’s eyes you are special.  And you say “Well Sid you don’t know what I did.”  Well, that’s okay you don’t know what I did.  The truth is no one knows what I did where it counts in Heaven.  Why, because I’ve truly repented of my sins. And I truly believe the blood of Jesus washed it away.  And I truly believe the word that says “I am the righteousness of God in Messiah Jesus.”  And it’s as if I’ve never sinned.  That’s why it’s so wonderful, you see as a traditional Jew coming from a traditional Jewish background, I would pray and fast for my sins to be atoned, covered on Yom Kippur.  But that just meant that they were covered, they were not washed away like they never existed.  And then I read in my own Jewish scriptures in Jeremiah chapter 31 verse 31 that a New Covenant would come to our Jewish people in which there would be 2 things that would occur.  Number 1 God says “Rather than cover your sins; I will remember your sins no more.”  That means God literally has no remembrance of my past.  That means when He sees me He sees His Son Jesus inside of me.  And I am the righteousness of God in Messiah Jesus, but the 2^nd thing was even more exciting.  He said under this New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31 there were 2 things that He would remember our sins no more; but number 2 we would know Him.  We would have intimacy with Him.  We would hear His voice; we would have a purpose we couldn’t complete our destiny and when we die we’ll just slip out of this earth suit and be with Him forever.  That happens to be good news.  I have a man on the telephone that is living actually a normal life; but abnormal when you compare him to 21^st century American Christianity.  But this is just normal; I mean he is a Vascular Surgeon; he prays for his patients before he operates and many times he’ll have a vision from God on what to do.  David, I happen to believe that that’s better than any x-ray you possibly could get.

David:  Oh absolutely.

Sid:  I have David Remedious on and Dr. Remedious is a Vascular Surgeon. We’ll have at least one of his former patients on the air that actually had a creative miracle because not only does he do surgery as God directs but God actually creates organs that aren’t supposed to be there.  And there is no other explanation but it’s a miracle.  On yesterday’s broadcast we found out that you came from a real tough background and you’re on the streets at age 13 in Bronx New York fending for yourself.  And if you didn’t learn to heart the voice of God I probably wouldn’t be speaking to you right now. I mean New York is a rough place today; but I imagine that it was pretty rough when you were in the streets of the Bronx.

David: I believe it was rougher back then. (Laughing) But yes Sir it was just a testimony to the keeping and the saving power of God.

Sid: Now what are your credentials by the way medically?

David: Oh I’ve graduated from New York University School of Medicine. But of course before that I went to undergraduate to Hobart College in Geneva, New York, then did my post graduate degree at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, Texas. Then at the University of South Florida and Tampa.

Sid: Now you speak at National Medical Conferences; what do you usually speak on?

David:  I speak on wound healing; I speak on nutrition and I speak on of course vascular surgery also.

Sid: Well David on yesterday’s broadcast we pretty much told everyone about your background.  Do you remember the first time as a surgeon you had a vision of what to do; the very first time?

David:   There was a man that came into my office and he came in because there was something; a headache. So clear the Holy Spirit told me “No, he also has a hernia in his belly button.”  And I’m blank and I’m going like… I’m trying to think and I’m looking at the man.  And I said “Sir would you please lift up your shirt I need to look at your belly button.” (Snickering) That’s kind of odd.

Sid: Excuse me he hadn’t mentioned that he had a hernia.

David:  Oh, absolutely not.

Sid: But if someone has a hernia they know that they have a hernia.

David:  (Laughing) Yeah.

Sid: (Laughing) So he did mention that he had a headache and you said “Let’s look at your belly button.”  Do you all ways act this way?  (Laughing) I’m just teasing; go ahead.

David:  (Laughing) Well, I believe that God as we yield to God that He will just use us in whatever field we’re doing in our normal everyday lives that God has done.  Not so limited to the realm of church but that in churches that we go to celebrate Him; but church is what we literally happens in our daily lives with our families and our jobs.  He said “We are led; we are called to be both natural and supernatural at the same time.  And that there shouldn’t be any blurring or any line that divides it we’re both.  And so when we invite God into our lives He just works anywhere and anywhere.  So that man had a need and He revealed to me what was going on and so I just obeyed.  That’s just the end of that; that’s just the way God is; God is awesome, He’s extraordinary.

Sid: So you look at his belly button and then what?

David:  And sure enough there was a hernia.  He was looking at me and said “How did you know I had that?  I said, “Well, I just knew.” (Laughing)

Sid: (Laughing)

David:  (Laughing) how do you explain.  Or of the case of a lady that came in and the moment she came in and she came in for something in her arm and the Holy Spirit showed me a vision of a tumor in her right breast.  And I said “Mam I feel that we need to check…” a lot of time when the Holy Spirit shows me I say “Well, when was your last breast examination?” And of course let’s get a mammogram and sure enough that’s what it was.

Sid: Wait a second, was that like news to her when you said.

David:  Yeah, oh yeah.

Sid: So did you have a vision of this or did you hear it?  What.

David:   Yeah, I saw it; I had a vision of it.  I saw the tumor literally.  And so I just told her…

Sid: Well, listen I understand this mammogram is a painful procedure.  I think that every doctor in the world ought to work in gifts in the Spirit.

David:  (Laughing) Praise God. I confirmed obviously with a mammogram because we need to always be particularly that we make sure that we’ve done everything correctly and for the right reasons.  You know that’s the thing about the gifts of the Spirit; someone that moves in the gifts of the Spirit is not afraid of the scrutiny of science.  God is not afraid to be scrutinized God confirms what He does and that’s the beauty of this whole thing.

Sid: Okay, so David there’s a couple that sued you over a piece of Real Estate so you might say you were not in the best relationship.  They did happen to be Christians and you get a phone call from the husband.  I’m talking about the Saps; what happened?

David:  Oh yes sir I do remember that (Laughing) yes I do.  My first inclination was “Well, I thought to myself how could he call me” I was going to say thanks but no thanks but I was going to be kind as I could be. But when I was going to say that the Holy Spirit said “Don’t you dare say no, you will treat her and you’re going to see my hand.”  I just looked up and I was in my car and I’m going “Okay Lord if that’s what you want me to do I’ll do it.”  Again obedience, we must live lifestyles of obedience.  And obviously she was having abdominal pain.  I said “Well, have her meet me in the emergency.”

Sid: Obviously, why did they select you?  Logic says they should have selected someone else; someone that weren’t involved in a legal matter.

David:    Well, they knew that I loved the Lord and they felt that that was the direction I was the man they were supposed to call.  And reluctantly agreed because I heard from the Holy Spirit that that’s what I was supposed to do.  So I meet them at the emergency room.  She had an acute abdominal surgery and you know she was hurting; she was really quite ill.  We made a decision; they actually were given her cathartic, to try to move her bowels; when in deed what was wrong with her she had a tumor in the transverse colon that totally obstructed her colon. So that because of the cathartic she was taking the colon   was getting bigger and bigger it was on the verge of exploding.  Not only that but her gall bladder was gangrenous at the same time.  So this was really a doozy; that was incredible.  This was an incredible case.

Sid: Was this very risky on her part.

David:  Oh, of course of course; we had to go in.  Her husband and I prayed and at that point she was out of it and she was going into shock.  Her husband and I prayed Lord “Send your angels ministering spirits to be in the operating room.”  And you know sometimes we pray but obviously expect but when He shows up sometimes we’re not really ready to handle it.  And that’s exactly what happened to…

Sid: David hold that thought we’ll be right at this place on tomorrow’s broadcast. Mishpochah I have a book that I believe actually supernaturally came into my hands.  It’s called “God’s Medicine Cabinet.”

Sid: We want everyone everywhere to understand God’s marvelous gift of grace.  But you know what, there is a hyper-grace movement that is totally distorting God’s wonderful gift of grace. So I said “Who do I know that would be the best person to analyze what is true Biblical grace, and what is wrong with the hyper-grace movement?” Of course it was called the no brainer it’s my friend Dr. Michael Brown.  Dr. Brown for those of you that aren’t familiar with him; he has a PhD in Near Eastern Languages from New York University.  He speaks, reads, or writes a dozen languages.  He has been in the scriptures for decades in the original languages.  Mike I’m sure you had a burden before we even contacted you about this hyper-grace message that’s going around.  When did you first… were concerned about this?

Michael:  Well it’s because I love the message of grace so much and I’m so jealousy for God’s true grace.  I started to get burdened when I saw just some distortions, some mixture that was coming with the grace message.  But in particular the last year everywhere I turn I’m running into this. Everywhere I turn I’ll quote a scripture about holiness and purity and someone will come back to me “That’s legalism, why are you throwing this under me, I’m under grace.”  And I thought that’s a strange response.  I would talk about let’s press in, let’s go after the Lord and let’s seek Him.  And they’d throw something back at me “That’s works. I’m under grace.”  And then they’d start using all the same terms. “I’m not into behavior modification, I’m not into sin management.”  And I thought “Where are these coming from?”  And so the more I began to look at it the more I saw that there were a number of books, a number of teachers and a number of ministries that all felt that they were part of a “grace revolution” or a “grace reformation.” Some of them say that there have been things hidden from the church 100’s and 100’s of years and now we have recovered it and we are putting this out. And I became increasingly alarmed when I saw the extreme claims that were being made. I became increasingly alarmed when I saw people being damaged.  Then Sid it was like a flood pastors, leaders, believers literally from all over the  America and different countries saying “Mike you’ve got to speak about this, you’ve got to write about this, this is splitting our churches.  This is confusing our people, families are being torn apart.”  And I saw some being touched by a great revelation of grace. And I’m so jealous for it because we can never for a split second down play, despise, denigrate God’s grace.  We live by grace 24-7 but I saw it being mixed with dangerous error.

Sid: Let me tell you what concerns me the most at this point.  The Bible says “Without holiness we will not even see God.”  And what the affect it’s having, even the ones that are not really in heresy, which most of them have a little bit of this heresy, is that when people start watching the TV shows, reading the books what happens is that barometer for holiness goes down and they start compromising.  I don’t want to share testimonies of men and women of God that have done things like leaving their wife and marrying their secretary. But here’s the thing, that’s happened even before the hyper-grace message.

Michael: Hm hm.   

Sid: But it’s justifying it, that’s what’s bothering me.

Michael:  Right, and here’s the thing every hyper-grace teacher that I’ve read and listened to many I’ve dialoged with; I’ve reached out to them and said “I’m writing about this, I’m quoting you do I understand you correctly are you willing to reconsider your position?”  And we’ve gone back and forth and I say “No, this is where I stand.”  Here’s the deal though everyone that I speak to they say the same thing “No, no, no grace is not a license for sin” when you understand grace rightly it helps you to overcome sin.” I said “But the problem is when you teach that God has already forgiven all our future sins before we’ve ever commit them; when you teach we never have to confess our sins to God; when you teach that the Holy Spirit never convicts us of sin anymore; when you tell us that anything where you have to exert some sort of effort to please God or obey God that that’s all wrong that that the flesh that that’s not grace.” Of course you’re setting people up for destruction; of course you’re opening the door for deception to come in. And I’ve told them “We’re not telling people that grace gives them a license to sin your very message is telling it in other ways.”  And that’s the mixture, God’s true grace Titus 2^nd chapter teaches us to say “No to ungodliness.”  God’s true grace changes us from the inside out.  Now here’s what is so important I didn’t call the message counterfeit grace in my book because there’s a wonderful true message that they’re preaching but it’s been preached with exaggeration; it’s been preached with distortion; it’s been preached with error added in.  So a lot of people just get the true part and they’ll say “My life has been changed by this message” I want to preserve that; I’m jealous for that; I don’t want to take away any good thing that anyone received. But when you mix anything with a little poison it can be deadly Sid.

Sid: You know one of the statements that I hear quite often and I believe we have to define this many say “I’m under the New Testament not under the Old; I’m not under the law anymore.”  What would you say I walked up to you Mike and I said “I’m not under the law anymore.” What would you say?

Michael: I would say absolutely, number 1 you’re not under the law as a system of justification; you don’t have to keep this commandment, this commandment to be justified. We’ve been justified through faith in Jesus saying “God save me from my sins.”  You’re not under the law as a system of justification; you’re not under the condemnation of the law that if you fail to keep the Sabbath one day there’s a death penalty of something like that. And you’re not under the law as a tutor, or a supervisor to bring you to the Messiah.  This is all laid out in scripture; as a matter of face I get into this in detail in my book as well.  So the law is no longer leading us to the Messiah; we have found the Messiah and we’re in Him.  NOW under the New Covenant the law is written on our hearts. NOW under the new covenant we have a higher standard.  The law said “Don’t commit adultery.”  Jesus now says to us “Don’t lust in your heart.”  The law said “Don’t murder, now Jesus grace says to us don’t hate in your heart.”  So now we are supernaturally empowered to do what the law commanded us to do; we couldn’t before, it was written on a tablet saying “Do this, do that.”  Now through grace it’s written in our hearts and that’s why Hebrew’s warns us “Don’t tamper with it because this is so much higher; so much more precious it cost Jesus His blood.”

Sid: Okay, if that’s true why don’t…  since the law is written in our heart why don’t we just cut out our Old Testament and throw it away. Why should we even hang on to it?

Michael:  Awe, do you know that one hyper-grace teacher of whom I quote in my book went as far as saying and I wrote to him and said “You still stand by?” He said “100%.”  He said “The Bible Society,” I don’t know which Bible Society he meant, “made a terrible mistake when they put the Old Testament together with the New Testament it has terribly confused believers.”  Sid I have chapters in my book talking about how the Old Testament is thrown out.  And people say “No, no, no we can learn from it; we can learn from examples.” Well Paul writes in 1^st Corinthians 10 to believers and said “Look at how Israel sinned.”  Look at how adultery, sexual morality, and don’t do the same because these are warnings for us. Sid the Bible of the early church was quote the Old Testament that’s the only Bible they had. Paul preached grace based on the Old Testament; now people want to throw it out.  That’s an ancient heresy that goes back to an early church leader who went heretical called Marcion and it goes all the way back to the 2^nd century; it’s being revisited today.  People are getting so caught up…

Sid: So the same spirit that was on this Marcion is on the hyper-grace teachers today.

Michael:  Or at least the tendency to go in that same direction.  There is one very well know TV preacher, author that he has a series a teaching series that contrast the God of the New Testament; the God of love and mercy with the God of wrathful God of the Old Testament. That is classic Marcion belief. So we need to recognize a serious root of error.  Sid, I’ve read stuff. You know I read the Hebrew like other people read the English.

Sid: Listen, you provoke me to jealousy.  Not only does he read the Hebrew but he has memorized a great deal of the Old Covenant in Hebrew. Is that correct?

Michael:  Yeah and I’m provoked that there is a whole lot more that I want to memorize that I want to get in my heart and mind.  It’s not that big a book when you really think about it.  But Sid I read some quotes and here’s what happens, Preacher A says it and then 100 other people repeat it.  I see verbatim book after book, teaching after teaching, they all say the same thing because they all think that Brother So and So researched it because he said the Hebrew said this and that. And it’s wrong!

Sid: (Laughing)

Michael:  That’s absolutely false; that’s absolutely false. I think “What Bible are they reading?”  And what grieves me is that some of these people are fine people with a fine message that could help so many. But they feel as if to really preach grace they have to go to this hyper-extreme.  Some of them say “If it’s not too good to be true it’s not grace.” Well then here’s a logical question, “If there is a hell, if there’s future punishment, then it’s not too good to be true.” Some of them have gone off the deep end and say “That’s right everyone will be ultimately be saved because hey “It’s grace.”  This is where it leads.

Sid: Don’t even some of them say the devil is going to end up being saved?

Michael: Yeah, there’s one fellow whose promote it; he used to promote a healthy revival repentance message.  Then he began to preach hyper-grace and the moment that you try to interact you are Ishmael, I am Isaac, you are under the law and the flesh and I’m in the Spirit.  And now he keeps going further and further and says “Why not, why not Satan being redeemed; why not these wicked spirits being redeemed?”  Is there anything outside of God’s grace?  Now 99% of the guys would reject that but that’s where it does when it goes untethered from scriptural truth.

Sid: You know Mike I am so excited to release your brand new book we are the first it’s called “Hyper-Grace” subtitled “Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Message.”  It’s 300 plus pages. But this is in my opinion the defining book for one of the greatest heresies that the church has had in modern times….

Sid: I’ll tell you something just reading this new translation of the Bible it’s called “The Power New Testament” it’s actually not that new but it’s fairly new for us.  It reveals the Jewish roots and I have to say it the way it is the King James Bible, the modern translations, there was an anti-Jewish bias.  And because of the bias there were serious mistakes made in the translation.  Now I have the translator on the phone his name is William Morford and William studied under a very prominent PhD Greek scholar.  And he made the statement after you showed him “The Power New Testament.” And by the way, where did this PhD and Greek teach Bill?  It was Columbia Bible College at that time and now Columbia International University.  And what was the statement that he made when he read this translation that you did?

Bill: Well he took me around and introduced me to others in the area that he said “Here is one of my students who has surpassed me.”

Sid: And okay, that’s on the Greek side; on the Hebrew side you studied with Eliezer Ben-Yehuda who’s the grandson of the famous Eliezer Ben-Yehuda, one of the first Zionist. And he’s credited with really the modern day Hebrew coming in as a spoken tongue in Israel.  I mean you can’t get any more… any better credentials than that.  But why did you call your Bible “The Power New Testament?”

Bill:  Alright that has little to do with the Jewish roots and a lot to do with the Greek language.  Because both Greek and Hebrew are very expressive languages.  And you know enough Israeli’s to know that they are very expressive people.

Sid: You know that’s probably why I love this; it’s such a fresh, crisp translation and I am understanding more about healing, and I’m not sure whether this was your purpose, but I am understanding more about healing by reading this “The Power New Testament” than any translation that I’ve ever read before.

Bill:  Yes, and see the way verbs are translated, certain tenses and certain moods require you to say “You must do this now or you must continually do this.” Well other translators just say “Do this.” They don’t bring out the urgency and they don’t bring out the time sense that must be done repeatedly or it must be done immediately.

Sid: By the way one of the things that I just happen to be looking at is the area of repentance.  Your Bible brings it out that we’re supposed to do this continuously!

Bill:  That’s right.

Sid: I mean it’s not a one time with Billy deal.

Bill:  Yeah, basically Jesus said to walk in repentance.  And see each of us knows we’ve been saved that’s not the problem but we’re not perfected. What’s right there in the Greek language is that Jesus said “You must continually walk in repentance.”  And we have to recognize that we’re not perfect and that we have to strive to be more Christ like.  That we have to strive every day to be better than we were the day before, and each year stand up the next year better than we are at the end of the year that’s just ended.

Sid: Bill, we didn’t finish up that story on yesterday’s broadcast that God gave you the revelation that He wants us to walk in divine health literally.  And since that time as I understand it you haven’t taken something like an aspirin or an over the counter type of medicine.  You totally have this revelation of healing from the word.

Bill:  Absolutely, and I’m 73 and it goes back at least 23 years since I took any medication.

Sid: But on yesterday’s broadcast you were talking about you were in Israel and you asked God for a sign if He was going to heal your eyes.  Someone accidentally broke your glasses. You took that as a sign and you started walking by faith and then when you realized that you could read street signs but what happens at someone that’s over 70 years of age and goes for a driver’s license not wearing glasses. What kind of results did you get?

Bill:  I went 3 days after my 70^th birthday and got the driver license that I have now, no glasses.  And I read, well you know the Hebrew text.  I can read all those points I use a Parallel English Hebrew Old Testament and I have no problem with the small print.

Sid: This isn’t the purpose of our broadcast, but I fancy myself as a mentor to help believers become all that God wants them to be. I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask you
“Why are you so convinced… if I were to say everyone needs to be healed in church.” In a good church not a bad church. Everyone needs to be healed in a church raise your hand.  I think that better than 95% of the people would raise their hands; how come?

Bill: (Laughing) That could be, that could be but my wife had this revelation too.  And several years ago she was diagnosed with cataracts that were ready, in fact the optometrist called them ripe and said that she had to get a surgeon right away and get them off.  She just went because she knew that she needed a new prescription.  And when she got home and prayed about it the Lord would not let her make any appointment. A year later she went back for that test and the cataracts were totally gone.  Her eyes are just as clear today as they can be.

Sid: You know I’m just looking up a particular scripture here in Mark 11:22 and 23. And Jesus said to them “You must have faith in God. Truly I say to you that whoever would say to this mountain ‘You must immediately be removed and you must immediately be cast into the sea,’ and would not doubt in his heart but would believe what he is saying is happening it’s shall be to him.  Because I say to you that you must continually pray for everything, then for whatever you are asking, believe that you have taken it, and it will be there for you…” You see how crisp this is Mishpochah, do you see the tenses.  I mean literally it becomes more to me than any translation that I’ve ever read before.  Is there one particular scripture on healing that you want to bring to our attention?

Bill:  Well there is one; it doesn’t deal specifically with healing but it’s Roman’s 4:17 where he says to “Speak things that are not as though they were. Just as it has been written I have appointed you a father before which he believed God. And the one who brings the dead to life and calls things that are not as though they are and they come into being.”  That’s actually from Isaiah 48:3.

Sid: And so you tell me that you’re 70 on this earth plus not all being a believer but most of the time being a believer that you’re walking just like this scripture.

Bill:  Right.

Sid: Alright that’s Romans 4 let me read this to you Roman’s 4:17 should I begin I’m reading from the “The Power New Testament.”  “Just as it has been written that I have appointed you a father of many nations; before which he believed God.  The one who brings the dead to life and calls those things that are not as though they are and they come into being.”  Let me read that again “Who brings the dead to life and calls those things that are not as though they are and they come into being.”   That is… that’s why you call this I’m sure “The Power New Testament” because that action, that power is put back into the words.

Bill:  Right!

Sid: Now let’s go with one of the major reasons and this may be the major reason Mishpochah.  When your wife was healed did she stand on that scripture?

Bill:  Yes she did that one and several others she knew that she was healed and she didn’t… really didn’t talk about it and I could see over the course of the year I could see the pupils in her eyes getting smaller and the color returning. So I knew that the Lord was doing what He said He would do.

Sid: Now the thing that is so intriguing, and I believe that one of the reasons that this is such an amazing reading Bible.  It’s modern English, it’s not archaic English it’s the Jewish roots. How did you learn these Jewish roots? How did you learn about these idioms if you read it and take it literally take it word for word you’ll miss what Jesus was saying?

Bill:  Alright well, you have to believe it in the first place.  And then just go on with it and the Hebrew things there are so many that I found that I knew even before I met  Eliezer Ben-Yehuda and it would really irritate me to read any other translation. That’s why for a few years before I did the translating I carried the Greek Text with me so I’d  read that and I wouldn’t have to get irritated when even preaching reading from another translation.

Sid: For example in Matthew 11:29 Jesus said “You must immediately take My yoke upon you.” Well what does this word yoke mean, you just look at the footnote and it says The rabbis’ say that the Lord’s yoke is total spiritual surrender.  And then you have a glossary in the back where you go into detail on the things.  As far as I’m concerned if you didn’t have the Jewish roots I would love this translation, but with the Jewish roots it puts it a class all of its own.

Sid:  My guest Pastor Charles Cowan Pastor of a 2,000 member strong Faith Is The Victory Church in Nashville, Tennessee.  Has just written a book; the titled “How to Deal With the Cares of Life.”  And you might say “Well, that’s not bothering me right now.” Well blink your eyes a few times and you will find yourself in a situation in what is going on… Charles with what’s going on the world right now.  I mean since 911 I mean you can’t turn your television on without a particular color terror warning.  You can’t turn your TV on without suicide bombers; you can’t turn your television on without hurricanes and tornadoes.  I mean the Bible does say that men’s hearts will suffer because of fear.

Charles:  Yeah it’s what He said “Men’s hearts will fail them for fear of looking to that which will come upon the world.”  And this thing it seems like it’s intensifying obviously and the whole design is that this thing Satan in this last day in this last hour he is bringing things to bear upon people and God’s people that are causing them to allow fear into their lives.  Which is bringing pressures; bringing them into a place of stress and they’re laden with the cares of life.

Sid: I’m going to get our Mishpochah very upset with me unless I take you back you’re on an airplane all of a sudden it plunges sharply downward.  Fear comes up in your throat a tangible force it shouldn’t be you know better but it does.  Fear literally, the spirit of fear and that’s the Bible calls it literally filled that in tire plane.  The plane then levels and then all of a sudden starts shaking again. And you’ve got a choice as you explained on yesterday’s broadcast, we all have choices.  Follow the external stimulus, or the word of God.  It sounds so simple but that’s our choice.  And as I said that God just told me there are people listening to whose backs and necks are healed in Jesus Name.  Charles we got you back in the plane; it’s shaking all over you’ve just plunged down what’s going on inside of you and what are you doing about it?

Charles:  Well what I’m doing now, what I’m feeling at the moment is an extreme amount of the emotions within me and thoughts that are racing through my mind as to the outcome of this thing as we described yesterday.  But now I found this out that when situations arise they’re going to determine whether I am spiritual or carnal.  When I say they will; I will determine whether I am carnal or spiritual when these things come against me.

Sid: Now when I hear the word carnal I usually think in terms of sexual sins and things like that.  But when the Bibles using the word carnal it’s relying on what your flesh and mind perceive and what the word of God says.

Charles:  When a person of a carnal mind is when they are moved only by what they hear and what they feel.

Sid: And you know what I find a lot of people that state the word but when something suddenly; and these things always seem to be suddenly come at you you go on the carnal side versus the Spirit side.

Charles:  Well here’s the problem sometimes I think in my estimation it is that people know what the Bibles says but they have maybe reduced it down to using it only when there is such an occasion like this to use it.  But we know this that you know you have a leak in your roof and you’re up there while it’s raining trying to fix it you’re probably not going to get it fixed.  And so what people fail to do is to fill themselves with God’s word before crisis comes; before this stress comes; before the Satan begins to tighten this thing down on them.  And fill their heart and fill their mind with the reading; the reading of the word and mediation in the word of God, or thinking upon the word of God.

Sid: Explain to me what you mean my meditation.

Charles:  Okay, meditation is just simply as I see it it’s just simply where I train my mind to think on the scriptures.  That I can do that when I am driving down the road you know I pick out certain scriptures or a number of scriptures from the Bible.  And I just think upon them. Now people sometimes say this they say “Well, you know you just can’t think about the scriptures all the time.”  But the truth of the matter is that we all are thinking about something all the time.  And it’s rare that our mind, our minds, are not in that thinking mode or process or even many times people lay down at night and can’t go to sleep because their minds are racing.  And so what I mean by that is I take scriptures that pertain to what God has done for me in Christ Jesus.  What did Jesus accomplish for me when he went to the cross; did He do more for me than just make a way for me to go to heaven?

Sid: Charles you and I understand that and we can talk about that all we want right now.  What I want to know is what was going on in your mind and what were you saying with your mouth after these things came upon you in that airplane; that’s what I’m interesting in?

Charles:  Two things that I forced myself to think on the two scriptures was “That He has given His angels charge over me to keep me in all of my ways and to bear me up in their hands less I dash my foot against a stone.”  And then in Isaiah’s writings where he says “No weapon formed against me shall prosper and every tongue that rises against me…” and so forth.  Those two scriptures are what I began to speak out of my mouth; I began to focus my thoughts and my thinking on the word of God.  I began to think on the word of God that God is faithful and He cannot deny Himself.  That “God watches over His word to perform it.”  I just flooded my thoughts with those scriptures and just refused; I mean when a thought would come of that fear again and what was going to happen I would just continually say to myself what God said “This is what God says; this is God; God cannot fail; God will not fail and He will not fail me.”  And I began to just saying that and saying that and as the pilot brought that plane down and leveled it off you know I felt a little bit of relief from the pressures of the fear that was trying to engulf me.  But then we were in that turbulence and here comes that emotion back to me again and the pilot comes on and says “Ladies and gentlemen we’re 80 miles out of Little Rock and we’re going to take it that we’re going to land in Little Rock.”  And then just a few short minutes later he comes back and says “That we’ve been informed that there is an ice storm that’s moving eastward and they have just informed us that the airport at Little Rock has just been closed.”  Well here comes those same emotions almost overwhelming; my mind is so so in turmoil at this time but I knew what to do.  I knew how to confront the situation; I knew that the word of God was my answer. So I began to speak a little louder to myself; “No weapon formed against me shall prosper; every tongue that rises against me in judgment I will condemn; He has given His angels charge over me and they are bearing me up in their hands; I will not dash my foot against a stone and I will be safe because God says that I will.”  So he comes then; the pilot does the captain comes I’m sure he didn’t mean it quite like it came to me but he said “And we are going to make an attempt to make it to Dallas Fort Worth.  Well, I know this you don’t try up there; you do or you don’t.  And so…

Sid: (Laughing)

Charles: And here comes that Satan flooding my mind with that “You’re going to try; he’s going to try; he’s either going to do it or he’s not going to do it.”  In this case he’s not going to do it and I just spoke a little louder what God said about my situation.  What God had done for me in my protection; in my safety and I said that until my mind quieted; till the emotions left my body and I could sit there in that plane in that turbulence.  And I had a perfect peace about me because God’s word had brought me into a place of peace though I was in the midst of the storm.  God’s word by His spirit had brought a peace to me that I could sit in the middle of a storm knowing that the end of the storm while I am yet still in the storm.  I said “I will be safe; this plane will land; I will go to the convention that I’m going to; I will return home to my family because I knew that God… if God said it that’s the way it’s going to be because God cannot lie and God does not fail.”

Sid: You know what I’m wondering?  I’m wondering you know when that tape recorder as you put it in your book starts going off in your mind if you spend a great deal of time watching violent sports on television; watching violence on TV.  Maybe more time than you’ve spent reading the Bible, I can see how Satan can pull that tape out rather than the scripture.

Charles: Well he’ll sure do that.  You know what you fill your mind with; what the individual fills their mind with that’s what Satan, you know over on his side of the ledger, that’s what he does.  He’ll push that play button and he’ll run all of these things that we see like on TV and all that we hear on the news and all of the bad that is happening in the world and he’ll play that tape over and over and over again.  And Satan will use those things to try to erase from our mind the word of God that we have placed in our mind. And so that’s why when Paul said “We’re to bring every thought into captivity…”   

Sid: Awe we’re out of time right now. Mishpochah this is so important and the times we’re living in….