Sid Roth

Sid: Well my guest says he’s red hot for the Messiah because over the years he has developed such intimacy with the Holy Spirit and I believe that God has raised John Bevere up to be a teacher of the word of God but did you know that over 20,000 churches in North America uses his materials? Millions of his books have been purchased by Christians worldwide. But on yesterday’s broadcast or I’ll get some people upset with us John if I don’t go right there. You were talking about a scripture that is misunderstood that has stopped many people from going further with the Holy Spirit, pick up right there.

John: That is correct many times people will discount gifts and the manifestations and I want to emphasis as I did yesterday. I think the greatest mistake people have made is that they taught and they’ve sought and to understand the manifestations of the Holy Spirit before coming to know Him as a person. You know Sid I had a dollar for every time I head the Holy Spirit referred to as an it I would be a wealthy man. But you know when you read scriptures you realize that He has a mind of His own. In Roman’s He has a will, in Corinthians He has emotions, He can be grieved, He can be insulted, He can be lied to, He speaks He speaks clearly. And Jesus made the statement that He’s going to be exactly like Me. And so Jesus even said “It’s better that we go away because I can’t reveal any more to you than what I have done unless the Holy Spirit comes and then He can show Me in a much greater way because He communicates with our spirits. And so in 1^st Corinthians people will discount the manifestations and the gifts of the Spirit so quickly because there is a scripture that says in 1^st Corinthians chapter 13 verse 10 “But that which is perfect has come then that which is in part will be done away with.” Well what is part? That refers to verse 9 which says “We know in part; we prophesy in part.” But their contention for the gifts being passed away is that the perfect has come because they say the perfect is the scripture. However, Paul goes on to verses later in verse 12 and tells us what the perfect is. He says “For now we see in a glass dimly but then when the perfect come face to face “Now I know in part” he says so we know in part and we prophecy in part. “He says “Now I know in part but then when the perfect has come I shall know just as I am know.” Now there’s two things that we have to say right here. Are we looking at Jesus face to face yet? No. Do we know Him as He knows us? Because those are the two things Paul says is going to happen when the perfect comes. The answer to both of those is no. So that means the perfect has not yet come which means we still need prophecy, we still need the gifts that he wrote about, they haven’t been done away with.

Sid: Well what about people that say “Okay, I am filled with the Holy Spirit but I do not believe that the gift of tongues is with us anymore because the scriptures says “Do all speak in tongues?”

John:   Well that’s another misunderstanding and the reason they misunderstand that is that they don’t understand that there are 4 different types of tongues the New Testament speaks about. Two of them are private 2 of them are public. If you look at the 2 public tongues that Paul talks about they are when we speak in another language of this earth that we’ve not been previously trained in the wonderful works of God. That’s what happened on the day of Pentecost those guys were unlearned were speaking different languages from all over the earth and the men from all over the earth were there for the Feast of Pentecost in Jerusalem. They heard them speaking in their natives tongues the wonderful works of God that was assigned to them; that was tongues for a sign. The other tongue that’s public is when a heavenly language is given the language not of this earth that one has to be interpreted which is another gift of the Spirit. When Paul talks in 1^st Corinthians chapter 12 and says “Do all speak in tongues?” The tongue that he is speaking of is that one right there if you read it all in context. It’s not the private tongues when praying in tongues it’s the public tongues. No, because if everybody spoke in tongues in a public assembly it would be mayhem and confusion. So he goes on to say in speaking about private tongues “I wish you all prayed in tongues.” Because he talks about praying in the Spirit, praying in the understanding. He talks about singing in the Spirit; singing in the understanding. You know Sid I look at it like this you know when we speak in a tongue God is giving us the ability to communicate with Him on His level. If I walked into President Obama’s office right now President Obama would have to come down to my level of understanding. Because I don’t know all of the security things that are going on in this nation and the different things that are going on in the government. So he and I could only have fellowship on my level of understanding. So when I walk into the King of the Universes office He wants, because I’m His child, you’re His child, He wants us to be able to communicate on His level. The only way… if we only speak in English the only way we could communicate is if God came down on our level. God has made a way that we His children can come into His throne and communicate to Him on His level because the Holy Spirit gives us the words when we pray in the Spirit to be able to communicate with God on His level.

Sid: You know John you were talking about speaking in different languages and actually in the Greek where it talks about it even says different dialects. I had a Bible study many years ago and there was a Filipino couple. The wife had received the Lord, the husband was a Professor of Medicine at Howard University, he had not. I spoke in tongues and there was the most amazed expression on his face because he heard me speaking not only in the Filipino language but in his dialect. And they’re like 30 different dialects in the Philippines. He first thought “My wife must have coaches Sid in that language to get me to be saved.” And then he thought “No, my wife doesn’t even speak the same dialect I speak. I mean that made me a believer and it made him a believer even more important.

John:   You know I had a similar experience. I was speaking in a large church. One of my staff members was sitting in the back and thought they were just praying in the Spirit.   They were praying very quiet and at the end of the service a gentleman stood up walked over to my staff member and said “Not only I’m a French teacher.” Actually his first question to her was “You speak French very well.” That’s the first thing he said to her and she said “No, I don’t speak French at all.” And he said “No way.” He said “I am a French Teacher and not only were you speaking the Old French but you were using a perfect accent as you spoke it. And she said “Sir, I don’t speak any French.” And he said “You were speaking and he was repeating almost verbatim what you were speaking. And he said “I couldn’t figure out if he given you all of his notes.” And she “No, I don’t have any of his notes.” And he said “But you were saying scriptures, you were quoting them in French and right after you finished quoting them he would say “Turn to that scripture.” And so it was a sign to him of how real the person of the Holy Spirit is and that He’s here to glorify Jesus.

Sid: John we don’t probably have the time necessary, but when I was a brand new believer I use to pray in tongues 1 hour a day and then I got too busy. And then I stopped. Well about a couple of years ago the Holy Spirit convicted me I needed more now than ever before and I’m back to an hour a day. How important is that?

John:   I think it’s extremely important because the Bible says you build up your inner-man on your most holy faith praying in the Holy Spirit. It also says in 1^st Corinthians 14 “He who speaks in an unknown tongues edifies himself.” That word edify means to build a large Ephesus. So you basically increasing the capacity of the presence of the Spirit of God in your life. You’re building a larger house for Him if that makes sense. (Laughing)

Sid: Well actually that’s what’s going on in the ministry too. I think it’s a direct correlation.

John: Our team members you know they come to work at 8:00 every morning right.

Sid: Right.

John: Well for years and years I remember when I first came to Colorado Springs they didn’t understand praying strong in the Spirit. So they would come into work, I was with them at the prayer meeting and for the first 15 minutes they were like “Oh, my gosh have of them they’re going to fall asleep it’s so dry.” And I remember I really started bucking against it and said “Guys, we’re going to pray fervently the Bible says the effective fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.” And I said “We’re going to pray in the Spirit because the Holy Spirit’s going to help us to pray in unison; I want a good portion of our time in prayer in the morning to be in the Spirit as I call out these needs on our prayer board.” Well do you know we’ve done that ever since we’ve had our office building here in Colorado Springs which is like 12 years ago. Every morning I’ve had so many people come in and say “They are completely overwhelmed by how much life is infused into them when they join up with our team praying in the Spirit in our morning prayer meetings.

Sid: ….I tell you you must have intimacy with the Holy Spirit. And God because he’s a teachers teacher and he’s not teaching theory; he’s teaching what he has done step by step. John is there any reason why someone can’t have the same or greater intimacy with the Holy Spirit….

John: We’re going to look at it like this God anoints people to teach and I realize that the anointing that’s on my life it’s not mine it wasn’t given to me for my benefit, it was given for the Body of Christ. And I realize when I looked at how this came together my son and I actually wrote it together. When I saw how it came together you can just see the hand of God on it so strong….

Sid: James, I am so fascinated by so many thing of the supernatural variety that have happened in your life. For instance tell me about that thing that happened in Jakarta, Indonesia, the Muslim bodyguard.

James:   Yes it’s amazing story I was just a privileged to be a part of it this happened just in June of this last June 2013. I’m I Jakarta, Indonesia and there’s like a big conference like about 5000 people or more that are there and that’s the largest Muslim populated nation of the world. And I have a police escort and I have a professionally trained bodyguard and I have all of this because of the intensity of all of the people and everything. And so anyway so I’m speaking at this conference and my professionally trained bodyguard is actually a Muslim, He had never one time ever been in a church or a Christian worship or conference setting in his entire life. So he is my bodyguard, he’s with me everywhere I go. So I’m up there speaking and I’m really saying prophetic declarations and the Holy Spirit is manifesting on 1000’s of people. While this is happening this guy gets catapulted into an open vision and he sees 5 white means and they were 5 angels that came and appeared to him. And then the next morning Bill Johnson and I are taking turns teaching and one of us taught and enters the in between. The guy goes up so it’s his second service that he’s ever going to be in in his life time. He doesn’t even know protocol he takes the microphone and he tells people then it’s translated from Indonesian over to me in English. And he says, I’m a Muslim and while Prophet James Goll was ministering and I’m serving Prophet James Goll and while he was ministering 5 angels came and appeared to him. The thing that fascinating is that well Muslim’s do not obviously see that Jesus is the Messiah and they do believe in prophets. And Jesus taught that if you receive a prophet in the name of a prophet you’ll receive a prophets reward. So he was serving me and he even referred to me as a prophet. So the next day, guess what I was going to speak on Sid?

Sid:     What?

James: It was really amazing you’re going to love this. So I’m like arguing with Holy Spirit; I mean I’m talking with the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit said to me “I want you to speak on why I pray and take a stand for Israel.

Sid: You know I was going to say that I should have said it but go ahead. (Laughing)

James: I’m going like “Well Lord don’t you know where I’m at; this is a Muslim…

Sid:   (Laughing)

James: Wrong guy, wrong place, wrong message I said “Why I pray and take a stand for Israel.” Wrong guy, wrong place, wrong message….

Sid: By the way I did that once in the West Bank in a Muslim area and they stood up and they started yelling at me Mossad agent; so I understand but go ahead. (Laughing)

James:   So anyway I go, so I go “Okay, I yield the right of way.” So while I’m doing this intense wonderful message on “Why I pray and take a stand for Israel,” my Muslim bodyguard in the middle of this message on Israel, and I wondered if this is not tied together, he has another visitation. Jesus and His 12 disciples hadn’t even heard of this one before; Jesus with His 12 disciples appears to him and Jesus looks at him and says “Would you be one of my disciples?”

Sid: Hm.

James: So this Muslim man in the middle of this Christian huge big worship and supernatural conference I’m speaking on “Why I pray and take a stand for Israel” has a visitation where Jesus appears to him and he gives his life to Jesus. My armor bearer ends up disciplining my bodyguard; I have gotten reports since then that the guys gotten water baptized; that his whole family has come to faith and he’s a member of a church. So isn’t that awesome.

Sid: James, why is it I am hearing for the first time in my life more Muslim’s are having visitations by Jesus and now it’s starting to happen to Jewish people visitations of Jesus. Why is this going on right now prophetically?

James: Because, wow we need it to happen just one. But it is a sign of the time; obviously you know the Book of Acts and the Book of Joel says “In the last days I will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh and old men will dream dreams and young men will have visions.” So I’ve been declaring for I’d say 15 years that the Islamic veil will be pierced. I’ve said it all over the world and I’ve said that “The Islamic veil will be pierced.” I didn’t say the Islam will disappear all I’ve said is that the “Islamic veil will be pierced.” And I have prophesied and I’m going to keep on prophesying until I see it with my own eyes that whole mosque and minarets are going to be turned over to 24-7, 365 relevant places of worship and prayer unto the One true God and His Name is Yeshua, His Name is Jesus.

Sid:     Wait a second in addition to the mosques can we include synagogues in that?

James:   Come on let’s do it.

Sid:     Will you proclaim that right now James?

James: Yes we will, I just speak it’s time for visitations; it’s time for the fire of God; it’s time for the wind of the Lord to come like the day of Pentecost. And even as it came to the Upper Room so it shall return back to the place of its origin. And we just speak forth the back to Jerusalem movement. And just say that the Islamic veil will be pierced but not only the Islamic veil will be pierced but the blinders shall come off the Jewish people eyes and they shall behold that Yeshua is their, our Messiah. And so we speak forth right now to Jew and Gentile across the world the greatest global awakening the world has ever seen for God’s holy Name sake.

Sid:   I’m going to tell you something; it’s happening now but it’s going to happen with greater intensity. In 1993 you had 9 straight weeks of angelic visitations; tell me about how it started.

James:   (Laughing) Well it’s pretty amazing I was teaching at the Grace Training Center at Kansas City and it was the Day of Atonement. I always present myself you know to the Lord on that special day the Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur the 10 days of Awe. And so I get home late after teaching a class I said I’m going to speak tonight. I left my assistant off and I get home and I crawl into bed and it’s after 11:00 and at 11:59 at night a lightning bolt struck in the back yard and I wake up. And the lightning from the lightning bolt came crashing through our bedroom window and a man stood at the end of my bed at 11:59 and it was an angel and it looked straight at me and then the clock turns to midnight and he says “Watch your wife I’m about to speak to her” and this the Day of Atonement opened up 9 straight weeks of angelic visitations. It was a supernatural ball of fire of light that set over our bedroom dresser from midnight until 5:00AM in the morning that night. And it opened the door to amazing God encounters, angels, the fire of God, Jesus actually coming and sang a song over us one night. And it was just amazing period and that was an amazing period of time because there was like you cross thresholds at different times and seasons. And that was a threshold that was being crossed; you know The Father’s blessing in Toronto that starts to be poured out; and then just 9 straight weeks after this. And so God is good and not a respecter of person and what He did for me He wants to do for you and He wants to invade your uncomfortable zones and He wants to come touch you, love you, heal you and overpower you with the revelation of His Majesty.

Sid: Now are there any born again Spirit filled Christians that do not have some of these supernatural gifts?

James: You know actually everyone does, but they need to be activated. And we need to get into the right culture for them to be enhanced, or empowered. So everybody has this but some people are dull but we can all be awakened. And that’s why I wrote that book because I want every single believer to be awakened into our full inheritance in Christ Jesus.

Sid: I have to tell you when I became a believer over 40 years ago now I came in in the charismatic movement and everything was experience. I just wished that I had been grounded in the supernatural gifts and the supernatural fruit of the Spirit….

SID: Hello. Welcome. Welcome to my world where it’s naturally supernatural. That rarified air of Heaven, I love breathing it in and breathing it out. We spend a third of our life sleeping. What if that third of your life was actually arranged by God to have you in a total seeing state in your dreams and He wants to tell you what decisions you should make, yes, or now what direction you should have, wisdom for friends in your dreams. My guest totally demystifies understanding dreams. She teaches how to remember your dreams and how to understand them, and one-third of your life will not be wasted on pizza dreams. You will know the truth through your dreams. I have to tell you I’m a logic kind of person, and therefore, I’ve had my dreams, I’ve had literal dreams, but only a few. I can number them on one hand. However, they’re all symbolic and I never can know exactly what they are. So being the type of person I am, I’ve tossed them all out. Laura, why doesn’t God just make it easy and give us literal dreams?

LAURA: You know what? You’re right, a lot of times He does. But you know, Jesus spoke in parables and he is still speaking in parables today. But mainly I say the reason he does this is because you have to apply your faith. When he shows you something then it requires you to seek him. It requires us to pray and to come up with an interpretation or go to someone who interprets, and then you have to apply your faith to it, and that’s pleasing to the Lord.

SID: Well you know what? You said the key operative word. It’s pleasing to the Lord to apply our faith. So I was, there’s a Hebrew phrase, meshuggah, a little crazy for tossing out God giving me direction. I’m not going to do it anymore. And you told me something last night that I’ve been thinking about ever since, Laura. And that is you have gotten up at night and opened your eyes and seen someone protecting you right in your bedroom. Tell me about that.

LAURA: Yes. I have seen someone twice at the foot of my bed and once over to my right where…just reaching over me to touch me, like this. And I had seen angels in the past, but it was through bright bursts of light or in other ways, over people, around a situation where protection was needed. But this was just a man. And I’m telling you he was there as if you’re there right now, just guarding over me.

SID: Now you’re provoking me to jealousy. I want that angel over my bed. How about you?

LAURA: You know what, I pray often for people to receive that. I don’t want mine leaving my bed, but the Lord to send someone over, because I believe that He also can give us sweet sleep. God says in Psalm 127, “He gives His beloved sleep.” But it’s not sometimes so automatic. You say, well I’m not sleeping. I’m His beloved. But you know, there’s a war going on for that third of our day. The enemy wants us riddled with sleep debt, apnea, insomnia, he wants all of that so that we don’t rest, so that we don’t have an opportunity to hear from God at that time of day like we can.

SID: How did you get into this understanding dreams? I mean, because you have become so expert at it. How did, what was the nucleus of it to start?

LAURA: Okay, well I’ll tell you. Twenty years ago I was teaching classes on hearing the voice of God and I began to notice that people were less comfortable saying, I had a word from the Lord or I have a prophecy for you than they were, I had a dream last night. Let me tell you what I think it means or what do you think it means? And so I began to just teach, you know, and exploring scripture on what dreams say. That’s really where it started. And then I changed the name of the classes to “Seeing the Voice of God.” So what happened to me personally during that time, and this was about 15 years ago, I was still teaching the hearing classes, I went through this hearing drought, as I call it. I was spiritually dead. My husband had just walked away from a lucrative music industry job and we had five children that time, and it was…and had a sixth one in the interim. And it was a really, we had to hear the Lord on our next step, and I wasn’t hearing anything. And then one night, I finally heard this small phrase and it was “five days”. And I thought, what does five days have to do with anything? And the Lord downloaded into me all at once, and I do mean all at once, “You’re going to get away with me for five days and you’re going to read the Bible in five days, and I’m going to let you ask me that question, ‘Is God ever silent?'” Because I was mourning. I was hearing and seeing these books on Christian bookstore shelves that when God is silent. And I just, I couldn’t bring myself to the point where I, you know, my God was silent, like He had a mute button. I just did not think he would do that. So the Lord provided a way at my father’s prayer cabin and I went, and in five days with a very strict reading schedule, it was just, you know, 12 to 15 hours a day, I read the entire Bible. I didn’t stop to chew on the Greek or Hebrew, or anything like that, just asked that one question. And Sid, I did not find one place in scripture where it says that God is silent. I found scriptures like, “If I regard iniquity in my heart, you will not hear me.” But coming to that conclusion I thought, okay, it’s not God’s mouth, it’s my ears. And that’s where Job 33 came into play for me. God began to bypass my ears and pour out visions and dreams. And Job 33 says, “God speaks in one way and in another, yet man does not perceive it in a dream, in a vision of the night. When deep sleep falls upon men while slumbering in their beds, then He opens the ears of men.” So the visions and the dreams started coming and during this time we changed the name of the classes to “Seeing the Voice of God” and voila, suddenly my ears were open again.

SID: I love that. There is hearing the voice of God, but you’re going to start, not just hearing, you’re going to start seeing the voice of God.

SID: Katherine, that vision that God gave you of restoring your dignity and where you came from, this background of abuse, but then there was a bonus. The fire of God came on you. Tell me about that.

KATHERINE: I started reading stories, everything I could get my hands on, on miracles. I watched Katheryn Kuhlman. I’d read stories with Smith Wigglesworth, John G. Lake, and I’d read about their experience of the baptism of the Holy Ghost and fire. And I think that ties in the Holy Spirit. When I was about 14 and had received the gift of tongues, as that’s what I expected. But you know, I wasn’t really at that stage expecting the fire of God. And I thought, when I read their stories about healing the sick, I thought, maybe I missed something. So I just got really hungry and I pressed Him, “Lord, I want you to baptize me with fire.” And I tell you, God began to do a work in me. For about nine months there would be many days I couldn’t get up off from the floor. I was groaning, having visions of what the Lord was going to do. And the call of God came on my life, and He began to work a deep process in me as His fire began to deal with the [unintelligible]. Well it’s been glorious though, because I know now that the power of God, He moves through me and He moves through everyone that would seek to look to him for fire for the power to God to be manifested.

SID: Tell me the first major miracle you can remember that happened when you prayed for someone.

KATHERINE: Well I had, someone had prophesied that I would see tumors disappear, on a Sunday service. And on a Monday, I was invited to speak at a ladies meeting. And I, at the end of the meeting, a lady came forward and she said, “Well I have a tumor. Could you please pray for me. That’s all I need.” She said, “I don’t fall down and I don’t speak in tongues, but can you pray for me.” And I said, “Sure.” And I went to pray for her and the Holy Spirit touched her, and she fell on the floor. You don’t have to fall on the floor, but some people just have weak wiring, I think, when it comes to the power of God and me, particularly. And while she was on the floor she said she felt the hand of God go into her belly four times. And when she got up, I went away overseas for a few weeks, I came back. They had done a battery of tests and I found out that prior to her coming to have prayer, she had an operation to try and remove a six-inch tumor wrapped around her pancreas, and she had cirrhosis of the liver, and the doctors had discovered that it was inoperable. So she came to the meeting in that state. But when she had gone back for all the tests, they discovered that there was no tumor. There was not a trace of cancer and she had a brand new liver.

SID: Now that is normal, normal as defined by the Bible. Now tell me, you mentor especially young kids. Are they doing similar things that you are?

KATHERINE: Oh, and greater things.

SID: Tell me one.

KATHERINE: They’ve seen the dead raise. We had a young man go into a local pharmacy just to get something and an elderly gentleman had a heart attack and died in the shop. And the Holy Spirit just said to this young man, he said, “What are you going to do about it?” So the paramedics had come and they were working on him, didn’t have a pulse. He wasn’t breathing. And so this young man just went and he laid his hand, got hold of his feet and just began to prophesy life and rebuke death, and prophesy life. And the man began to cough and came back to life. And the paramedic came to church that weekend to testify he had never seen anything like it.

SID: Now one of the keys that you talk about is you’re aware of how much needs you have. Normally, I hear people going around saying, “Oh, because of Jesus, I’m just self-sufficient at everything. I’ve got money, I’ve got health, I got family.” But need, being, recognizing your need is so important to capturing the heart of God.

KATHERINE: To me, it’s the key really, because it’s as we present our weakness, in our weakness He is strong. And the more that I can present to him, the more ashes I can bring, the more faith, the beauty I can receive by faith. If I bring my sin, He brings his forgiveness. If I bring my weakness and my fears, He brings the answer to all my needs. And the Bible says, “The Holy Spirit is our ever present help in time of need.” And I’ve discovered my time of need is all the time. I am so needy. I’m so needy for love. You know, I have a wonderful husband. We’ve been married 23 years. But there isn’t a man on the planet that could meet the need that I have. In fact, there isn’t anybody that can meet anybody’s love needs because we were created to need to the perfect love of God. And when we present that need to Him on a daily basis, the more we open, the more we need, the more we need Him, the more we receive. I remember having a vision once of a big jagged piece cut out of my life, and I was just complaining to God saying, Lord, I’m so needy. And I saw a picture of that same piece cut in exactly the same shape as my hole in my life come down and fit right down to the level of the deepest cut. And I believe every day if we present our need to God, He wants to fill us to overflowing.

SID: When we come back, tell me about the great miracle that happened with that prostitute. Don’t go away because I’m going to have her pray for you, too, and miracles are going to erupt.

Sid: The way you’re red hot for Jesus is everyone everywhere must know Jesus, and know means have intimacy with Him. But there are things that are stopping you from having the intimacy that your heart craves with God. And that’s why my guest Trish Frost, I have her new book “Unbound Breaking Free from Life Entanglements.” You know Trish the older I get the more sympathy for God. I think we humans are so messed up I mean the ministry that you have every Christian the minute they get saved should go through it.

Trisha:   Well I think so, I’m in agreement with you and the reason I feel like Christians everywhere should go through this is it helps you become unbound, it gets you unstuck. I don’t know about you Sid but I don’t think I’ve ever been anywhere I have not met people many people that they’re stuck in life and they don’t even know why. You know they don’t understand “Okay I’m repeating this behavior over and over and over again it’s causing conflict in my family, I don’t want the conflict in my family, I don’t want the conflict in my relationship with God or man, but here I am stuck. How do I understand how I get unstuck?”

Sid: You know the best way for them to understand what you teach is for them to understand you and your husband Jack who is now in heaven. Trish and Jack Frost have the most wonderful ministry, and I’ll use her words, to get people unstuck. Now in your case you were raised by a Christian family. Your father had a heart attack wasn’t able to make a living, so what areas were you stuck in?

Trisha: Well my father was a great man and we went from being a middle class family to a family that just barely had enough to get by. And even though he was a good man he provided food, clothes and shelter, as a child I judged him because I embraced a lie about him. And the lie that I embraced about my dad was that he’s a good man but your father will give you just enough to get by. And so that carried into my relationship with all men and especially God. You know that God is good and I know that I told everybody that I was born saved of course we know that that’s not true but I grew up in such a Christian home that I never knew a time in my life as a young person where God was not a part of my life. And so I began to see God the same way that I saw my earthly dad that he’s good but he’ll give you just enough to get by. So when people started telling me about faith and that you could trust God and that you could believe God for all of these things that wasn’t my reality. You know it might be truth but it wasn’t my reality because my judgment of God was He’ll give you just enough to get by, so I was stuck. I was one of those people that heard all of these wonderful things about the supernatural power and relationship of a loving God but it just wasn’t happening in my life. And so I was stuck, I was stuck in a lie in an ungodly belief and it kept me bound most of my young adult life.

Sid: And it seems to me the way that you were taught the word they gave you a King James Bible when you were just 5 years old and gave you a dictionary and said “Read it.” I’m amazed that you did that, but you must have been fairly legalistic too at that time.

Trisha: Well I grew up with a good background, again my family was Christian but we did come probably from a law based Christianity than a love based Christianity but we didn’t know any better. You know, I’m 60 years old now Sid and growing up in that kind of home over 50 something years ago it was just natural for me. But my mom she knew the importance of the word, she knew the importance of getting the word inside of us. But again 50 years ago there was no such thing if there were I didn’t have one as a Message Bible, as a Living Translation, as a Study Bible. Our family just couldn’t afford things like that and so what she could afford was a dictionary. Because I remember going to her and asking her “What does this mean, or what does this word mean?”

Sid: Okay, we’ve got a pretty good background of you, now let’s take your husband Jack. You made a statement about him and you said “He was the most wounded person you knew” that’s quite a statement.”

Trisha: Yeah, he was very wounded and if you remember anything about Jack’s background he grew up with alcoholic parents that he had to perform to have a place of value. So Jack grew up striving, striving for that place of value to where mom and dad would even notice him. And because they didn’t notice him being an alcoholics they didn’t even notice Jack, he was almost invisible. And his brother was the superstar or the tennis player. So Jack kind of grew up emotionally detached from people, no one showed him affection, no one showed him value or affirmed him so he grew up that way. And as an adult man when we got married and he had a family he began to treat us the same what that his family treated him because he didn’t know any different.

Sid: And you came from a background of low self-esteem, he came from a background of low self-esteem it’s a miracle you two stayed together.

Trisha: (Laughing) We used to say that all of the time.

Sid: (Laughing) But guess what the people that are listening to us right now they would say “Well it’s a miracle we stayed together.” But God had a plan, what is the major thing that got your husband’s attention that caused him to recognize he was stuck?

Trisha: Well I think the main thing was our oldest son and Jack’s relationship with our oldest son. I remember one day he kind of saw the look in Micah’s face when Micah just gave up, there’s no point in trying to cut the grass right, there’s no point in trying to do good in school because no matter how good I do even if it’s the best I can do it’s never enough to please dad. And so that look that Micah gave him that look of “Well I don’t have any value either in my dad’s eyes and I think that wounded Jack to the point that he just kind of set out on a journey. “Okay Father God I have never known intimacy with a Father, I don’t know where to start.” And of course he got saved first but even after his salvation Sid that didn’t change his behavior. You know he was a saved person but he was mean, he was still mean. So salvation didn’t change his behavior and it was in a pursuit that he constantly pursued intimacy with a loving Father. He never could find it until finally he went to a “Father Loves You Conference” in Toronto. And it was at that conference that this sweet fellow he was 5’6” his name was Jack Winter, prayed for 6’5” Jack Frost and he just asked him one question. He said “Jack has your father ever blessed you?” And Jack, my Jack had to say “No, I’ve never been blessed by my earthly dad.” And he didn’t know anything about a father’s blessing. And so Jack Winter stood for about 20 minutes just speaking life over Jack, just blessing him, just telling him all of the things that a father should say to a son. So when Jack came home from that conference, you know we had not gone with him to that conference. And when he came home from that conference I knew that it was real because he didn’t try to take it and teach it to at a church he was a conference speaker by that time. He brought it home and the first thing he did was he just changed. He went from being the aggressive striver Sid to the loving, kind father. We didn’t know how to handle this Jack we’d never seen this Jack. And it was out of that that he began to changed his relationship with Father God changed first. He stopped seeing God as that cop in the sky that’s out to get you no matter what you do your doomed. And he stopped seeing God that way and he began to see “Okay, I can have a relationship with God.” Really, you know, but something happened with the power of that blessing that got him unstuck to the point to where he began to relate lovingly and kindly first to me and then to the children. And it has gone around the world, I mean the message of one changed life has literally touched 100’s of 1000’s of other lives. And continues to this day even though he’s in heaven.

Sid: Everyone, I’m convinced, is entangled with some wrong thinking which then becomes a stronghold. And many times they don’t even know their thinking is wrong all they know is the way that they react. How do people get to the root of their wrong thinking? It’s easy to see what your wrong thinking was now. It’s easy to see what Jack’s wrong thinking was now. How do people listening to us get to the roots of their wrong thinking?

Trisha: Well I think they have to identify “What is the behavior?” In other words, “What am I doing that’s wounding other people?” And as for me I pray the word of God, you know Psalms 29:33. You know “Lord, search me, there’s got to be something inside of me that doesn’t want to do what I’m presently doing that’s hurting and wounding other people.” And so I began to trace that wound back to “Okay, where was the point that I was wounded, where did I give life to pain that has caused me to be stuck in childhood behavior or to be stuck in you know negative thinking?” And I believe…

Sid: I’ll tell you we’re out of time right now.