Our Guest Kevin Turner
Sid: You know it’s kind of difficult in 21st Century America because the gospel has been so watered down just because the discipleship has been so watered down; that I just recently read Charisma Magazine and I saw an article in here that peaked my interest written by a man that I’ve interviewed previously. The title of the article is “Why Isn’t the American Church Growing?” The author, Kevin Turner president of Strategic World Impact. He works in primarily 3 areas; war zones; disaster areas, and where Christians are being persecuted. Kevin where am I speaking to you from right now?
Kevin: Well, I’m calling you from Africa, the continent of Africa. I’m right on the border of Sudan where we’ve been working now for actually here for almost 10 years, from this area the last 5 years.
Sid: Now listen; I have a problem with the watered down discipleship; seeker sensitive Christianity in America. If I have a problem I imagine you have a bigger problem; how did we get from the Book to what we have?
Kevin: Well, I think one of reasons is just simply the fact that people thought that by lowering the bar; lowering the bar of discipleship that we could possibly increase the numbers. And it’s indicative of our society because when you talk to a pastor or anyone else, the church leader the first thing they want to tell them is how big their church is. We’re not interested in quantity; I’m interested in quality. And what I see all the time is we’re just fascinated with the showmanship of everything. So to do that we have to have these secret sensitive churches that literally alienate and destroy the very foundations of the Word of God so that we can have these want-to-be disciples that truly have never been born again!
Sid: But you know what, I think many have been born again but they stay babies.
Kevin: Well, all I know two things that are indicative of a baby; when that baby comes out of its mother’s womb 1: he’ll cry and 2: he longs for milk. Peter said “As new born babes desire the sincere milk of the word.” And I have hard time believing that we can call people that say that they are born again that they have no desire to be in fellowship; they have no desire for the word of God; they don’t cry out to the father or mother. See what I mean; they’re not crying to Father God saying “God touch me; fill me; cleanse me; purify me.” So there are no signs other than this; we teach them how to be religious; we teach them how to pray; we bribe them to come to church; we pick them up and bring them there; we take them to lunch afterwards. And really what we have is flesh born of flesh; it’s not spirit born of the Spirit.
Sid: In America it’s an unreal moment in history. There has never been a country where the average person is as prosperous, almost lives not almost, lives like a king of former generations. We basically don’t have any persecution. Yes we had 911 but basically we’re like in a bubble. I want you to tell me a bit about what’s going on in the rest of the world.
Kevin: Well, first of all let me address the whole issue of persecution. Scripture plainly states in Timothy that anyone who desires to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. And unfortunately most American’s do nothing with that verse; it’s almost as if it were never written. I believe that even in America you can live your life in such a red hot way; such a passionate way that you do receive persecution. Now it may not be the same as Sudan, or Saudi Arabia, or Naro Trayo, or many of the countries that I’ve worked in but there’s alienation. I think one of the big things I see is that we don’t want to see our good reputation. We don’t want to be thought less of than what we think we’re worth. But what I see around the world is the contrast to that. I mean we’re baptizing Muslim converts who were fundamentalists. That what baptism means to them is more than being buried with Christ in baptism and raised to walk in newness of life through the power of the Holy Spirit. It means the threat of death, it means utter alienation from your family; it means that husbands can have their wives taken away. It means their children can be taken away. It means that Jesus becomes their all and all.
Sid: Let me read a short paragraph from your article “Why Isn’t the American Church Growing?” A Chinese Christian recently visited the United States and toured churches here. At the end of the trip he was asked what American spirituality? He answered “I’m amazed at how much the church in America can accomplish without the Holy Spirit.”
Kevin: Yeah; unfortunately that tends to be the case and I think…
Sid: That reminds me of a top Christian television personality that fell and ended up in prison and I went to visit him in prison. And I talked about some of the large media ministries in the United States and I said “You know they’ve to be from God because look how big they are; look at how big they’re growing so much!” And he looked at me and he almost laughed and he said “Listen, when you’ve got the gifting from God you can build any size organization that you want to and God doesn’t even have to be in it.”
Kevin: That’s correct.
Sid: It’s sad.
Kevin: Unfortunately, you just hit a heartstring of mine because I believe that many of the ministers of America in my own heart believe me this thing lurks. Where we literally have the potential to prostitute the graces of God. In other words, God touches us His gifts and call are without repentance. He desires through love to touch us that we might be used for His glory but what happens in the end we’re building our own kingdoms we’re prostituting His graces and in the end we’re lifted up in pride, we come under the same condemnation as the devil and we’re pushed from His presence. And I believe that part of the key to why America isn’t experiencing revival one of the reasons is that simply God can’t trust us with His Holy Spirit. I remember one time I was praying and in fact I was asking the Lord about healing for certain people and I’m in the shower taking a shower and getting all cleaned. And really basically what I’m doing is trying to get the Lord to use me to heal some people and I remember he spoke to me so gently and it cut me like a knife He said “Kevin would you want those people to be healed if nobody knew you were involved?”
Sid: Hmm; that nails you. (Laughing)
Kevin: My heart was broken; you know what’s the sense of glory if you don’t get any of it right? And this is the thing that can affect my heart; that can affect your heart. The battle that I face as a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ isn’t failure; the battle I face is success. I remember one time we were shipping supplies into Serbia. They were under sanctions; they were under Resolution 724 with the UN and I had special clearance to ship in medical supplies and various things. And I was billed as the wonder boy; boy if anyone could get it in Kevin could. And I remember that my containers was sitting in Piraeus, Greece one of the largest shipping ports in the world. I’m supposed to get these things up to Serbia. I had 2 weeks and I was going to travel through there and fly out of Budapest. Well nothing was moving; I’m staying at this old Bible School as the top floor and again and again nothing moved day after day. I spent over $24,000, I was personally in debt and literally each day here’s what I noticed my prayers at the end of the day got shorter and shorter. And finally I came down crawled up those stairs; fell down on that creaky wooden floor just me and Jesus and I prayed one of the truest prayers I ever prayed in my life. All I said was this “Why?” The Lord spoke to me as clear as a bell, He said “Kevin you don’t want those containers in there for those people you want those containers in there so you look good.” And this is what the Lord taught me and I pray to God I never forget. He said “You know what Kevin, everybody wants to be My personal success story.”
Sid: Hm.
Kevin: But nobody’s interested in being a failure for me. And there on that floor all alone in Greece I had a good old fashion death, burial, and resurrection. And before Jesus I saw my arrogance and my vanity and my pride. And I cried out “From this day forward I resign myself to be content to be your personal failure.” And what I mean by that is not that God destroys everything around you it’s that your content not to look good. It’s that you’re content to be faithful whether the world applauds you or not. So success is the biggest danger that I have ever seen in my life. So unfortunately, this corporate world mentality has consumed the average pastor because he’s sees a couple mega-churches on TV and they logged themselves as the next approach. And the next thing you know every bodies lining up and your making these gospel puppet preachers who have no unction; no anointing of the Holy Spirit because they’ve just looked at a program or a method. But the Bible said “God calls a man.” And this is what I see in my own heart and the nation; this is the thing that I see, and it breaks my heart.
Sid: Mishpochah I’m speaking to Kevin Turner President of Strategic World Impact. He works in war zones and disaster areas or areas where Christians are being persecuted. Knowing how he lays his life on the line; his family’s life on the line because they’re with him on the field. And hearing how broken he is and how repetitive he is (Woe is me). You know what Isaiah stood before the throne he says “Woe is me I’m undone; I’m an unclean man amongst an unclean people; I’ve seen the King.”
