Sid Roth

Sid: I am so excited because my guest is a Jewish believer in the Messiah that has lived in Israel since 1973. His name is Lance Lambert and on yesterday’s broadcast we were talking about his homeland Great Britain. They made a tragic mistake there was in the British Foreign Office they actually became an enemy of the Jews trying to escape from Germany from trying to get out of this holocaust and get to Israel, and Britain was a major obstacle in stopping them from doing this. As a result Britain who was the greatest country in the world became… what would you call it Lance?

Lance: Well I would call it an offshore island of Europe now, for its own identity.

Sid: We were talking yesterday, just as I just said that the spiritual scales are coming off of the eyes of Jewish people. There are literally spiritual scales on the eyes of many Christians in reference to the Jew in Israel. As a matter of fact, I can’t see how someone can be a real Christian because of the fact that the Jewish people were faithful to preserve the scriptures which had the prophecies to tell us who the Messiah was. That the Jewish people are responsible for taking the original good news to the Gentile… the blood of the greatest Jew who ever lived flowed through the veins of everyone who calls himself a true Christian. I don’t understand how they can have spiritual scales on their eyes in reference to the Jewish people and the nation Israel. You were talking about the British Foreign Office and how they made some pretty bad decisions, what about here in the US our State Department? Why are they so anti-Israel it appears?

Lance: Well I think really it’s expediency, the fact is that Israel doesn’t have the oil. Our Arab cousins have a very large amount of the oil of the world.

Sid: So if oil wasn’t in the equation you think maybe we wouldn’t be so two-state solution minded?

Lance: I think it’s very much to do… first of all the enormous amount of wealth that is now in the hands of the oil sheikh’s for the investment in the world in general. It’s a question of expediency I think it’s very sad when you think the Burton, one quarter of the world was ruled by Burton. Seven times the population of the Roman Empire to believe she is only really a collection of islands off the continent of Europe is incredible but it’s happened. It happened with the Ottoman Empire, another huge empire, it happened with the Soviet Empire, another huge empire. All of them had something to do with Israel, their relationship to the Jewish people of Israel was the point at which they fell.

Sid: Now you know a lot of… I am told that a number of the spiritual advisers to our president of the United States are into what is called Replacement Theology, the belief that the church has replaced Israel in reference to the blessings. When it says Zion in the Bible that means the church it does not mean Israel. What would your position be on that statement?

Lance: I believe that there is a spiritual Zion, there is Jerusalem above which is the mother of us all. Finally when that great city, the new Jerusalem comes out of heaven having the glory of God it is the One New Man, but to deduce from that that the church has taken the place of Israel in my estimation is utterly wrong. For me as I see it, God began with the Jewish people and He will end with the Jewish people. The natural branches will come back into their own olive tree as the Apostle Paul said by the Holy Spirit in the Roman letter chapter 11.

Sid: Alright if you and I were sitting down and having, because you’re from Great Britain and because I’ve been over your house and I have had tea with you and I know that’s one of your customs, which is a very nice custom by the way. So if the two of us were sitting down having tea together and we happen to invite President Bush and Condoleezza Rice, and the question of two-state solution came up what would you say to our President and our Secretary of State?

Lance: I would beg him to think again because you cannot contradict a solemn pact that God Himself made with our forefathers in which He has honored in the recreation of the state of Israel. As I said in our last talk together God lives in the present it’s as if it was today that that pact was made. I know that President Bush is a good man, I know he’s a born again believer, I know that he has courageously stood up on the question of abortion, euthanasia, gay rights and many other things, but this matter is genuinely not understood by Christians they don’t understand:

1. How important the Jewish people are to God
2. How important the land the promised land is

In Joel it actually says that “In the day that the captivity of Jerusalem and Judea are returned” in other words over. “In that day the Lord says” this is Joel 3 and the first verses He says “I will bring all the nations down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat” Yehoshaphat means “Lord judges.” “Down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat and there I will judge them because they have scattered my heritage and divided My land.” What in the world can that mean “divided My land?” unless it’s two sovereign states living side by side in the land of promise that God promised solemnly to one party.

Sid: In affect what God is saying is judgment results for the sin of dividing up my land.

Lance: Yes. You know Sid it’s interesting the first American president to ever articulate the phrase “Land for peace” was President Bush Senior. The moment he did it you had the hurricane Andrew then later…

Sid: You know what’s even worse than that when the perfect storm came, you’re probably aware of it, but the father senior President Bush had a home in Kennebunkport, Main and it literally, the storm, damaged his home.

Lance: Yes and he had to leave the Madrid conference early.

Sid: For those that don’t know what the Madrid conference is that was basically the “Land for Peace Conference.”

Lance: Yes it was the beginning of this whole movement that is now… now we have his son articulating two states within this land living side by side in peace and security.

Sid: Lance will this ever be before the Messiah returns will this ever be?

Lance: That’s a good question. What I can say is this, if they try to do it the judgments that are coming down upon all the nations will get faster and more furious. Derrick Prince used to say absolutely rightly “When God judges as with the plagues in Egypt, He begins quietly and waits to see if there will be any repentance, if not, the next one is worse. He waits again if they don’t repent till in the end it becomes catastrophic.”

Sid: You know you mentioned the word plague and the whole world is now very alarmed over the bird flu.

Lance: Yes. I mean the real thing is this that these things that are happening now with the earthquake and tsunami at the beginning of the year, then another earthquake in the same place on Easter Sunday. Another one on the same place on Pentecost Sunday, I think it can’t be coincidence. Now you have the withdrawal from Gaza at the very last day of it you had Katrina in New Orleans.

Sid: You know we were talking earlier this week every time Arafat came to the White House and they cracked down on Israel there was an immediate within 24 hours of judgment.

Lance: Yes!

Sid: Now the new leader in the so called Palestinian state, the same thing is happening with him when he comes to the White House. How bad do you think it could get with the United States if we don’t back off this two-state solution?

Lance: I can well understand American patriots most Americans are pretty patriotic. I can well understand them that they cannot believe that America, the superpower in the world, with so much for her could in fact collapse. It happened with the Soviet Union, and it’s happened with Great Britain. God is no respecter of persons.

Sid: We did it again Lance we’re out of time.

Sid: Now you may know my guest because he’s an honorary member of the Black Panther Party, or perhaps you seen him on Fox News, or O’Reilly or even The History Channel.  By the way Paul McGuire what a distinction you’re an honorary member of the Black Panther Party?

Paul:  Yes Sid it’s great to be on your show by the way.  How that happened is I was supporting the Black Panthers when I was like 15 years old in terms of demonstrating in favor of them.  I decided that I wanted to become a member of the Black Panther Party.

Sid: Yeah, but I don’t think you qualify, but go ahead. (Laughing)

Paul: (Laughing) Well, that’s what I found out so I go on the bus from Jackson Heights Queens to Corona which was an African American neighborhood back then when I was growing up in New York City.  I went to the storefront which was the Black Panther Party headquarters for that area and I walked in and there was these two big guys in black leather jackets and they looked at me like “What are you doing in here white boy?”  And then I said “I want to become a member of the Black Panther Party” and they said “You can’t.”  And I said “Why?” and they said “Because you’re white!”  And I said to them “Well that’s discrimination.”  And then we had an argument don’t ask me why I had the boldness to have an argument but anyway we had an argument and they said “Okay, you can be an honorary member of the Black Panther Party.”  So that’s how it went.

Sid: Okay, now you came from an interesting background, you were not raised Christian, your parents didn’t know the Lord you were taught and you believed all the answers were in science.  It sounds like the modern college student today; you wondered into the occult.  What did you really think of Christians in college because you walked into the hippy movement and the Jesus movement when you were in college?  What was your honest thought of Christians?

Paul:  Sid when I grew up in New York City I hated Christians with such a passion that literally when I would walk to the subway and it would like Sunday morning or something I would spit outside the ground of churches because I looked at these people like they were idiots and hypocrites.  So when I went to the University of Missouri I met Christians you know born again Christians for the first time.  I distinctly remember these two girls that were trying to convert me in debate class and unfortunately I would rip them to shreds in debate class and reduce them to tears.  Because even though they knew the Lord they couldn’t defend their faith.  So I hated Christians with a passion and took every opportunity to make fun of them.  When I saw the cover of either Time or Newsweek where it said “The Jesus Movement” I couldn’t stand that.  But God knocked me off my horse eventually.

Sid: But wait a second there’s something I have to ask you about; I’ve heard of whacky majors especially today.  But back then I didn’t know that there were such wacky Majors as your Major was Altered States of Consciousness.   That’s a real college major?

Paul:  Yeah.

Sid: (Laugh)

Paul:  And the thing is that it was a brand new field in the Department of Psychology, so my dual major was Film Making, and then my other major was Altered States of Consciousness; where we studied that plus extracurricular activities in changing our conscientiousness; so yeah it was a real field.

Sid: So how in the world did God get through to you? I mean I can just picture the kind of guy you were but at that point I mean liberal was too liberal a word to use for you. (Laughing)

Paul:  Yeah right; well I was I mean hair down to my belt buckle.

Sid: (Laughing)

Paul:  Cowboy boots, two packs of cigarettes a day, you know I was a total rebel and I hated Christianity with a passion.  And I was dropping acid and partying but I was also an intellectual I’d read 50 books a week from philosophers to scientists and all kinds of people. So I couldn’t stand Christians, I mean I can’t tell you if there was a list of religions Christianity would have been on the bottom of the list; even below the Hari Chrisnas that used to dance in the airport.

Sid: That’s low. (Laughing)

Paul:  So what happened was for strange reason I was going back to my dormitory and there was a long hallway and there was this geeky looking nerd guy…

Sid: But wait a second, I still have to ask you one thing. On this amazing major you had Altered States of Conscientiousness I guess it was in the Psychology Department you’re in class one day and you actually heard a voice about that you were to surrender.  What did this voice say to you?

Paul:  Well, this was bizarre and I was told you know to expect it; my professor was brilliant.  He was trying to recruit me into something that I didn’t quite understand back then which was this global movement of scientists and gurus.  And I was attending one of his lectures and as was my habit I sat in the back row of the classroom. While he was lecturing I heard this very loud voice in my head that said like a command to me “Surrender to the dark forces within.”  And I was jolted because it sounded audible and I looked around and nobody else noticed it and this terrified me because I realized this voice just spoke to me inside my head like it was a telepathic communication.  So that fear got my attention.

Sid: Okay now you’re being setup to be a leader of the New Age Religion, that’s obvious to me; how did you get waylaid by the Lord?

Paul:  Well how I got waylaid these Christians began to witness to me.  I never had Christians; nobody ever witnessed to me in my entire life growing up in New York City not once did somebody say “Jesus loves you” or share the gospel not one.  So at the University of Missouri for the first time in my life I began to meet these born again Christians. The only reason I even paid attention to the gospel message was there was an attractive female who I thought was cute and so she was talking to me about Jesus all the time. And the only reason she had my attention was that she was cute; so I listened to her and God planted seeds in my mind about the gospel.  Now I still was not remotely interested in really becoming a Christian so…

Sid: Just the girl but okay go ahead.

Paul: Yeah right just the girl, but she ended up marrying up somebody else but that was fine.  So the thing was I came back to the dormitory one day there was nobody there and down a long hallway there was a guy sitting at the end of the dormitory reading this little teeny bible and he looked like a geek and a nerd. We began talking because he was there to meet somebody else wasn’t there. So instead he invites me to this Christian religious retreat about an hour outside of the campus at the University of Missouri.  For some strange reason and I cannot tell you why except maybe the look in his eyes I saw something very different in his eyes like a light; like the light of Lord, but I couldn’t really  process it.  So I get to this religious retreat and it confirms my worst suspicions about Christianity being a country club religion.  It was a bunch of sorority girls, dormitory guys, they were making out, they were playing spin the bottle and kissing each other.  And I’m saying “Look, I didn’t come here to play spin the bottle, if I’m going to party I’m going to party hard I’m from New York I’m not going to play spin the bottle.”  So I asked these guys the heavy questions “Why was I alive, who was Jesus, I started to ask them these important questions and they looked at me like I was nuts.”  So I said “You know what if this is Christianity I definitely want nothing to do with it.”  So the next morning I told the guy who invited me there I’m going to hitchhike back to the campus of the University of Missouri.  I’m out there in the middle of nowhere like the movie “The Field of Dreams” it’s just cornfields and blue sky.  I get on to this road and they guy who invited me there he has this light in his eyes and he tells me “Paul you know God’s going to take care of your rides home.”  And I said to myself “Yeah sure, God’s going to take care of my rides home” I ignored him, I blew it off.”  The first car that pulls up after I stick out my thumb to hitch a ride is a car driven by a Pentecostal Preacher and his wife and they begin to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with me.

Sid: That was a good start (Laughing).

Paul:  Yeah right, as we’re driving down the road in the cornfields, but being from New York and skeptical I said “Okay so this is the Bible belt and we’re out here in the middle of nowhere in the cornfields there’s probably a lot of Pentecostal preachers driving around this time of day so I ignored it.” I get out on the road again I stick out my thumb this time about 3 minutes after I stick out my thumb a station-wagon pulls up. The station-wagon is driving by a guy wearing a dark three piece suit.  He looks like an undertaker but he’s actually a Bible salesman.

Sid: (Laughing)

Paul:  And he is driving a station-wagon packed with black thick black leather King James Bibles; I mean big thick ones.

Sid: What a setup. So what did you do with this guy, better yet what did he do with you?

Paul:  (Laughing) Well, I’m ignoring this guy but he holding this 65 pound, that’s what it looked like, black King James Bible and he’s preaching to me in Kings James English.  And there’s no friendship evangelism or anything he let’s go of the stirring wheel by the way while he’s preaching and looks at me with no body driving the car.  And he says to me point bank he gets right down to it he says “You’re a sinner and unless you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior you’re going to spend eternity in Hell.”  So I mean I didn’t even believe in the word sin, sin to me was some kind of archaic concept.  So then he goes to me “Do you want to pull off on the side of the road and pray the sinner’s prayer?”  Now literally because I’m from New York City and I’m very paranoid I’m figuring “I’m in a car with a religious ax-murderer-pervert….

Sid: Oi we’re out of time. Now Paul McGuire God has used his intellectual ability but has gifted him in the supernatural and between the two he has spent 30 years studying the area of the mark of beast, in particular microchips. He has been warned by God as well as getting natural information.  And I want to tell you something, he has the greatest knowledge of where we are timing wise in the return of Jesus and what is about ready to happen. His book “The Day the Dollar Died” and his 3 DVDs “Are You Ready for One World Government, One World Economic System and One World Religion.”

Sid: My guest Jennifer LeClaire is red hot for the Messiah because she doesn’t just teach like a college professor, but she teaches from her experiences and shows that anything she can do in the word of God you can do in the word of God.  Jennifer you also move in the prophetic and in 2007 you received some prophetic words about America what were they?

Jennifer:  That’s right Sid I woke up, the Lord woke me up at midnight and He offered me a word about a great awakening coming to the nation.  He said, “That He’d heard our cries to heal the land” and He said “He was a Covenant God and He would not forget the Covenant that He made with America.”  But He also said “There would be a shaking, there will be a shaking that everything that own those things that could be shaken will be shaken and the sin in the land would be made bare.”  He said “That He requires repentance through this generation for the abortions, for the prayerlessness, for the apathy, the idolatry.”  You know He made it very clear to me as yes there is a great awakening coming but that it would get darker, that it would get darker before the light shines brightly again. Now that was back in 2007 long before so many of the problems the fiscal cliff, the great recession you know all of the many things that have happened since then it has definitely grown darker but I have faith to believe God’s Word that it will grow lighter again; that there will be a great revival.  I’m not the only one that’s prophesied it others have also received similar words from the Lord about this…

Sid: But Jennifer here’s the thing that concerns me, I don’t think you have to be a prophet to see that what’s going on economically with America; morally with America.  I’ve never seen a time, I’ve never lived in a time, I’m 72 years of age and I have never lived in a time where things are deteriorating as rapidly as it’s going on right before our very eyes.  If now people can’t operate in basic Bible faith because God’s Word says “Without faith you can’t please Him.”  Even though we’re going to end up in Heaven we’re going to be in as bad shape as the world.  It’s simple for us to operate in unbelief and doubt, but it’s also simple to operate in faith.  Can you help these people that need to get their battery started again so to speak, they’re stuck?

Jennifer:  Yeah definitely Christians in this hour especially and even more so in the days ahead we’ve got to operate in faith; we’ve got to operate as supernatural people; we’ve got to operate of citizens in Heaven who are here to enforce the word of God; we’ve got to do it.  The way to do that is first of all understanding the times and the seasons that we’re in you know.  The Bible says that in the last days that men’s hearts will fail because of fear.  So we’ve got to be really keen on staying in the Word; the Bible talks about in 1 Timothy 4:1-3 “Some will depart from the faith in the latter days and their going to give heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, they’re going to speak lies and hypocrisy; their consciences is going to be seared with a hot iron…”  And I mean it just goes on and on and on. The days ahead we’re going to need to be people of faith unshakable faith, unmovable faith more than ever.  And that means that we got first of all to stay in the Word, we’ve got to be so careful also who we listen teach the word of God.  There is the hyper-grace message that’s going through the Body of Christ right now it’s so grieves me…

Sid: But you know when people say that “Well how can you be hyper-grace, I want as much grace as I can have, what’s wrong with the hyper-grace message?

Jennifer:  Well, I want as much grace as I can have too.  But the hyper-grace message strips Christians of their responsibility to walk in the truth of the Word. It negates the fear of the Lord it positions God as a Big Sugar Daddy in the sky who’s there to hand out blessings but not correct. The Bibles says “He loves those whom He corrects,” He corrects us; He deals with us; He chastises us because we love Him.  And I would be very concerned if I wasn’t being corrected or the Holy Spirit wasn’t gently guiding me in ways that I should go because every day we make mistakes in word, thought or deed. If you don’t have the Holy Spirit’s conviction work in your life I would be very concerned. We’ve got to seek the truth and no matter what the truth is and I’m very disturbed about what’s sweeping through this deception the Body of Christ.  We have got to keep our faith squarely on what the Word of God says and that means we have to know what the Word of God says we cannot go from church to church, from conference seeking something to satisfy our tickling ear, our itching ears. We’ve got to stay rooted and grounded in the unadulterated Word of God.

Sid: Well, if we say anything right now we say that it’s time for a jump start and your book which is “Faith Magnified” I don’t know of a better jump start.  I talked to the reviewer that’s what he said to me.  And the subtitle I love “How to be free from Doubtaholism.”  Talk a little bit because you’re a woman of faith; you’re a woman that operates in the invisible world; teach a little bit about the difference between great faith and little faith.

Jennifer:  Yeah, great faith is pure faith, great faith is faith that takes God’s Word for face value.  See when I read the Bible I don’t try to just read what I believe, I try to believe what I read; I do believe what I read; I take God’s Word.

Sid: So simple and so profound I want you to say it again because I think someone might have missed it.

Jennifer:  Yeah, when you read the Bible you’ve got to believe what you read, not just read what you believe.  The problem is that we hear so many different perspectives and so many teachers and it’s all good I love to listen to a variety.  But what you’ll find in the Body of Christ is there’s many different flows and it’s all good as long as it’s coming from Jesus.  But we all have our own perspectives and we can be taught a certain way; we can grow up in the church under a certain flow or a denomination, and we can understand and perceive and receive the Word in a certain way when the Word actually doesn’t quite say that at all that’s just a perspective we’ve taken on it.  And so we have to believe what we read; not just read what we already believe, what we’ve already be taught. And if we can’t peel through the Word we can’t dig down deeper for ourselves we’ll never build that great faith.  It’s not enough to listen to a Bible teacher, I encourage you to listen to the Bible teachers they’re great, I listen to the Bible teachers all the time I soak myself in the Word from whatever direction I can get.  But nothing, nothing replaces studying the Word for yourself and I say studying because it’s not just good enough to read the Word, you’ve got to study it.

Sid: Now, just give us a couple tips. How do you study the word?

Jennifer: Well, honestly I’ve got a concordance, I’ve got a Vines dictionary, I read something and I stick on one theme for a while.  You know when God highlights something to me in the word I don’t sort of read that, gloss over it and jump somewhere else I stick on that theme.  So it’s God’s showing me something about forgiveness I might get my concordance out and read everything there is about forgiveness because if He’s showing me that… see studying the Bible is interacting with God I talk to God while I read the Word.  You know when God shows me a scripture I say “Well, what do you want me to see about that, what am I supposed to take away from that; what were you thinking God when you said that? You know I talk and I talk with God; I converse with God in interactive study with His Spirit and with the Word.  And really to me that’s the only way, that’s what makes the Word come alive and that’s what’s going to help build that great faith. It’s not just reading black and white and red words on paper.  It’s about engaging with the Spirit of God.

Sid: When you look back on where God’s brought you from it is almost… I mean you’re bestselling author now you’re a News Editor with one of the leading Christian magazines in the country. What do you think, what would it have been like if you haven’t found the Lord?

Jennifer: I can’t even imagine I was fading and fading fast you know and I continue to marvel at what God has done in my life.  But you know it’s not just me, God is no respecter of persons I had a dream and I pursued God and I pursued the God of the dream and I took faith and I put it to action.  You can do the same thing, everyone listening to my voice God has given you a dream, God has already brought you from a mighty long way; look back and see the great things He’s done in your life instead of thinking about where you haven’t gone or what you haven’t received or what you can’t do. Look at what God has done that will build your faith for what He can do and what He wants to do.

Sid: Well, there’s something called “The Power of the Testimony.” When I share what others have received they receive it and that’s what’s going on in your book “Faith Magnified.” Rather than operating in faith and doubt and having these little foxes operate in their life they’re going to be normal, normal as defined by the Bible.

Jennifer:  That’s right we should be living like in the days of the Book of Acts that’s normal, that’s who we call supernatural but that’s really normal.  And we can build that kind of faith we really can it’s possible.  It’s just a matter of being disciplined going after God with all your heart and just believing Him, just taking Him at His word. He’s the one who makes the word come to pass, He’s the one that does it.

Sid:  This is a program that you didn’t know that is an answer to your prayer because I have Betsy and Chester Kylstra who were a mess and they’re open and transparent about it. You find out that you’re not the only one that’s a mess on planet earth that’s a spirit filled believer.  That you’re typical but God doesn’t want you to be a typical mess God wants you to fulfill your destiny.  So Chester Kylstra, tell me just a brief summary of what happens to people that take your courses?

Chester:  Yeah, well what the Lord showed us through his revelation of four ministry sources from which all of our problems come.  And those weren’t new in themselves to the body of Christ but the need to minister in an integrated way to all four.  And we refer to them sometimes as the four doors or the four legal grounds. It comes out of Genesis 4:7 and 8 when God says to Cain you know “Sin is crouching at your door and its desire is to have you or control you.”  And the implication was don’t let it, but of course Cain did.  So the first source of our problems we call it the context of our lives comes out of the 2^nd commandment where the iniquity of the fathers are visited or past on down to the children for 3 or 4 generations and so here we are.  We inherit what the 30 people ahead of us had passed down to us and so the ancestral sins is one of them. That sort of sets the…

Sid: You know my logical mind says we should not have to deal with all of those generation of people. I mean I can’t even go back more than a few generations in my life.

Chester: Right.   

Sid: There’s no way I’m going to know all of the generational sins that my ancestors dealt with.

Chester:  That’s right so that’s where the Holy Spirit comes in. We both observe what’s going on in our lives in our extended family but we also ask the Holy Spirit what are the roots.

Sid: You know you made a statement you say that God sees man in terms of families and generations, we don’t think in those terms.

Chester: That’s right that’s so obvious Sid as we read the scriptures and so anyway that’s the first open door sets us up. Then the third open door is we get wounded because of all our families are dysfunctional or we’re dysfunctional or our friends that we have.  Our hearts get wounded, we rejected we get abandoned and we get victimized on and on and on.  The list is quite long, but I’m trying to summarize so I’m not going to go through the whole list. Out of our hurt hearts then the fascinating thing the human brain has to make sense or understand what’s going on.  And so we try to figure out why are these things happening to me, and anytime we decide “Well, this is happening to me because” and that because is a lie out of the pit of hell then we’ve just come into agreement with the Kingdom of darkness.  And as I said about my lies I had believed by my dad dying and rejecting I thought I was rejected. Was that no one wants to be immediate important people in my life will leave me and abandon me. I’m all alone I have to take care of myself and on in that vein, a whole bunch of victim orphan type thinking lies. Unfortunately as I said every lie is an agreement with the kingdom of darkness to the father of lies.  So these three open doors of our wounded heart, our messed up thinking, which is by the way Paul says “We have to get our minds renewed” Romans 12:2.  They just set up the fourth door which is demonic depression, where we give legal access for the demons to come after us. God showed us we need to deal with all four of these areas in a very interrelated integrated way if we really want deep and lasting healing.  And we are seeing that over and over and we’ve seen it for over 20 years.

Sid: Okay there is something that is literally epidemic in our society. The institution of marriage it’s like in another few years if things keep going the way they are it won’t even exist. Even in Christian families I’m amazed that the number of divorces there are and they don’t want it, but it’s like because they know what the Bible says about divorce. It’s happening and then the wounding that happened to the children of a divorce.  Have you been able to help people that are on the verge of divorce?

Chester:  Oh yes it’s so much fun to help them.

Betsy:  We have a lot of times a couple have to us and they’ll just say “This is our last step before the divorce court.”  So they’ve been helped by the books and the materials and then that gives them hope that they actually come and have somebody lead them through a prayer time that maybe their marriage can be saved.  But a particular story I’d like to share with you is of a little girl who was 8 years old and her decided her mother had read the materials and listened to the CDs and her mother decided to bring this child because the little girl was saying “Mommy I just don’t want to live anymore, mommy I don’t have any desire to live.”  And what had happened to this little girl as she had been totally traumatized by the fighting that her parents had done screaming at each other, hitting each other before they actually got the divorce.  And the little girl would run into her closet and close the door, put her clothes over her head so she didn’t have to hear the screaming and fighting. Then when her parents got divorced somehow she felt it was her fault.  If she had just been a better little girl this wouldn’t of happened and so she was carrying all of this pain and guilt.  So when she came for…

Sid:  So she was dealing with shame too, she thought she was responsible for her parents’ divorce.

Chester: What was the matter with me?

Betsy:  Yeah. She was dealing with the whole shame and fear and she was traumatized by the parents fighting.  And so when the Lord came to meet her she saw herself in the closet which had been her hiding place, where she had listened to her parents fighting. And Jesus came as a very bright light at first that’s what she saw. And then she saw Him come and she leaned against His chest and she just began to give Him all her pain and her guilt and her sadness and her 8 year old words for trauma.  The Lord just took it, took all of that out of her heart and she began to live again and she told her mom I want to live again. That was the beginning of her healing journey.

Sid: You know it’s just overwhelming to me Betsy and Chester the problems every human on this earth has it’s got to be the most rewarding thing in the world because God not only set the two of you free but he’s given you keys to set other people free.  And over the years you’ve streamlined these keys tell me about the history of Biblical healing and deliverance.

Chester:  Well, its original form “Restoring the Foundations” which we call our larger book was written back in ’94 we’d been teaching for several years now. We were ministering to this large ministry on the Gulf Coast of Florida.  They’d invited us in for a year or two to minister to all of their leadership and they like what happened so much they asked if they could host a conference and have us lead it. And that was our first conference Sid and it was amazing.  We thought did anybody really want to come, we weren’t totally free of shame yet at that point. (Laughing) We had over 250 people come, but we wanted to have a take away and so we wrote the first version of the book and showed how these four areas are there and how they interrelate and how to get free of them.  And it was just wonderful conference and people are very grateful and then in the next couple of years we finished the book and got it into a good form.  Then a publisher liked it but said “This big books too big can you reduce its size so we can take it into the bookstore.” And that’s where Biblical Healing and Ministry…

Sid: Well, well it’s so simple and because of what you’ve learned over all of these years how many years have you been practicing this?

Chester:  Well, we’re well over 25 years now although we like to time it from our first official going into a church and ministry to leadership and raising up ministry teams and we call that when they paid us to do it. That was when we were officially in the ministry Sid and so that’s been from ’90.

Sid: Okay people are still bound up after being Christians for so many years and that’s why you have your 3 CD series “True Identity” which deals with shame, fear and control so they don’t have to be bound up.  The book we’ve been talking about “Biblical Healing and Deliverance” and the prayer card which has these four integrated prayers which I mean you’ve made it so simple, I mean you guys have come a long way Betsy and Chester.  But I’ll tell you what I think the problems are so compounded with Christians today more than any generation that has ever lived.