Sid Roth

SID: Hello. Sid Roth here with the Kylstras, and I know you came back. Tell me the keys that God has revealed to you.

CHESTER: It simple just like you said. But, and these four keys are already known, Sid. But what He showed us is they need to be dealt together. It’s almost like putting all four keys in the locks at the same time.

SID: Like’s it’s integrated would be the word.

CHESTER: That’s the word we use. Integrated, interrelated. So the first one is very simple. It comes out of the second commandment where we pick up our family stuff. It just gets passed down through the generations until someone takes it to the cross. So I entered into the family sins of my family.

SID: You know, you made a statement that God, when He looks at us, and it’s very profound, He doesn’t look at us, He looks at our whole family line. I’ve never thought about that before.

CHESTER: That’s right. Well He’s the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Right?

SID: Right.

CHESTER: He’s the family father of our family line also. So anyway, that sets us up. We enter in the sins of our fathers. We don’t have to, but we all do that. And then out of that we grow up in families. And we found out that all of us think our families are normal. But the reality is that they’re all dysfunctional, normally dysfunctional. How about that. Some a lot, some a little.

SID: Well with me, that’s an understatement, Chester. How about you guys? How about you?

CHESTER: Normally dysfunctional. So we get wounds to our heart. That’s why Jesus said, “I came to heal the broken hearted.” And we sin out of those wounds. People touch our tender points. But then out of those wounds we’ve learned the human mind is always trying to make sense out of what’s going on around us and what’s happening to us. And so most of the time we make sense by coming to the conclusion, there must be something the matter with me or these things wouldn’t be happening to me. And so we buy ungodly beliefs, which is what we like call the lies we believe. Because my dad died and left me there must be something out of me and important people will leave. So the safe way to deal with that was to avoid other people. And we could go on with lots more. So these are lies based on God’s Word. God doesn’t say I’m a loner. He doesn’t say important people are going to leave. He just says I’m His dearly beloved. That was a huge revelation.

SID: So you replace the lie with the truth.

CHESTER: Yes.

SID: The truth is God’s promise.

CHESTER: And will set you free. And God has given us a very good process to go through to deal with converting lies into His truth. So those three areas, ancestral sins, the lies we believe, the hurts of our heart, all provide legal access to the demonic oppression. Some of them come down the family line. We open up the doors ourselves and invite them in. And so the devil does his job, which is to steal, kill and destroy, until we learn to not let him do that anymore, until we learn to begin to shut those doors. God gave Betsy a key vision one time as we were looking at these four areas.

BETSY: I was locking up the house to go on a vacation and there were four doors. And so as I was locking each one, the Lord said, “Why are you locking those doors?” And I said, “Because there are precious things inside I don’t want stolen.” And He said, “It’s just like locking four ministry doors, the doors of the four ministry areas. If you close and lock them then the enemy won’t be able to come in and steal the precious things that are inside.”

SID: Chester said, when you close those three doors the demonic doesn’t even want to stay, and it’s so easy to get free. It’s not a big deal.

CHESTER: That’s true. We find deliverance in restoring the foundations of ministry. It’s almost a non-event. Let’s say boring. And we’ve all heard stories of deliverance from the old days where people get bounced off the walls and stuff. It’s because they did not take back the legal rights that the first three areas provide. And each one is related to the other three. Because the demons, they keep all this going on down the family line.

SID: Okay. Give me an example of the generational family line that someone could be dealing with today.

CHESTER: Well alcoholism is very common. So there’s an addiction issue, but also probably some major abandonment, victimization, things such as that. So that would be the ancestral sins and curses. So the child grows up, let’s say in an alcoholic family, probably makes a vowed judgment against his parents, whichever one is the alcoholic, I will never be like that. So then they set themselves up to reap what they’ve just vowed. Or I won’t treat my children that way. I’m not going to holler, yell or scream, and they find themselves, years later, hollering, yelling and screaming at their children, and hating it at the very same time they’re doing it. And why am I doing this? So ancestral sins are at work there. They enter into him and made them their own.

SID: Alright Betsy, tell me about an ungodly belief that you had.

BETSY: Well I had an ungodly belief that I was just always going to be left out. And what I found out later is the enemy has a strategy to reinforce an ungodly belief, setting up situations over and over, and over to reinforce the power of that. So I had that ungodly belief, I’m a mistake, I’ll be left out.

SID: And Chester, tell me what was the biggest soul wound you had.

CHESTER: Well I guess it was the abandonment by my father. Of course, he didn’t intend to abandon me.

SID: But you didn’t know that. That’s the problem.

CHESTER: A two-year-old doesn’t figure these things out. We just live it. But I expected to be abandoned by everybody else. That was the ungodly believe I got. So I found myself being abandoned lots of times. And abandonment can take a lot of different forms. It can be, you know, as I said—

SID: You known what I’m reminded of? As a man thinks in his heart, so is he. Chester thought he would be abandoned. Betsy had this terrific fear of death. Do you have a fear of death now?

BETSY: No sir.

SID: I can tell. That’s with an attitude.

BETSY: Jumping across the table.

SID: Okay. I’m going to turn them loose in the next segment to pray for you? You want them to? I thought so. I thought so.

Sid: My guest is red hot for the Messiah, he’s been a frequent guest on Messianic Vision. His name is Dr. Robert Heidler and he is the Senior Pastor of Glory of Zion Outreach Center in Denton, Texas. He holds a Master’s Degree from Dallas Theological Seminary. He’s had quite a journey in understanding the deliverance ministry, but something happened to him 5 years ago that transformed his thinking; he’s put it in a book and for the first time we can make available to whoever desires a self-deliverance manual that is so quick, so precise, so anointed, so simple that anyone can be set free and help others be set free. As I asked you before went on the air Robert, tell me what happened to you 5 years ago when you’re literally a new mantle of thinking hit you, explain.

Robert: Well I said up until that time when I thought of deliverance I thought of a 5 hour session with the person rolling around on the floor; it really didn’t produce much in the way of results. I was asked to be on a ministry team at a conference, this was a conference of about 2,000 people and they wanted to have individual deliverance sessions for anybody that wanted it. So they said we’ll put you in a room and you’ll have 15 minutes with each person to pray deliverance for them. When I heard that I thought “That is crazy. How can you do deliverance in 15 minutes?” We prayed and we went in there, my wife and I were partnering on the team. What we saw was God began to show us how to deal specifically with the issues, and we literally saw person after person set free in 15 minutes. We came back and did the same thing at a conference in our church and that’s where our deliverance ministry began because people began to come from all over the state because they heard “You can go there and get delivered.” It’s not painful, it’s not messy, and it lasts, it works.

Sid: I like that. I’m just going through your book as you’re speaking and you have a lot of these exercises to spot these hidden things. One has to do with ancestral sins, explain that.

Robert: Well Sid there are things that have happened in our ancestry things that have happened even before we were born that can give demonic powers a right to bring affliction into our lives. Once we see what those things are and deal with those, it cuts off the enemy’s attack.

Sid: Yeah but if it’s an ancestor you don’t know what their problems were.

Robert: Well God can show you; usually it’s something you are aware of. God can really show what the things are. We do a lot of that in deliverance, and it’s usually something the person is aware of in their ancestry. In a few cases it wasn’t and God just began to reveal it prophetically. In Daniel chapter 9, Daniel prayed, and he confessed, and repented of the sins of his ancestors. The result was that his people were set free from the bondage.

Sid: Give an example on page 93 of your book you have “Repenting of Ancestral Sins” and you list a number of them. What does someone do with this?

Robert: Well take anti-Semitism, if a person knows there’s anti-Semitism in their background that brings a curse that lasts generationally. It’s a curse that can be passed on from one generation to the next, and you see the results of a curse in your life and yet you look at your life and you don’t really see what you’ve done to bring that curse about. Once you see that there are things from your ancestry that can produce a curse you can go back and say “Well you know this was in my family line.” There’s a very simple prayer that takes you through to confess that, to renounce that, to take authority over the things that resulted from that. The result is the curse is broken.

Sid: Now as I said I’m looking at page 93 where you talk about “Repenting of Ancestral Sins” and you list them alphabetically. You say pray through the list confessing and renouncing the sins. Maybe I’ll read some of these.

Robert: Okay.

Sid: Abortion, adultery, argumentative, bitterness, bragging, fighting, coveting, critical, cruel, cursing, dishonesty, drunkenness, drug abuse, envy, I’m just jumping around here you have so many. Homosexuality, impurity, but what about… there seems to be such an addiction, if you will, to pornography with the advent of the internet. Could this be demonic?

Robert: Oh definitely, definitely.

Sid: Is there… and I’m sure you had a lot of experience along this line, but is there one person that comes to mind that was set free from that?

Robert: There was a very young man who was thoroughly addicted to pornography and it just controlled his life. He really wanted to serve the Lord, he was a… he wanted to follow the Lord, but this thing just controlled him and he could not stop, and he could not get free of it. We took him through some steps in deliverance and really in about 45 minutes he was set free. He did not have that problem again.

Sid: Now something that I mentioned to you, you have a definition of the word “deliverance” at the start of your book, and I like it. One of the definitions is it means to “rescue” explain.

Robert: When you’re in need of deliverance it means you’re being oppressed, you’re being harassed by the enemy. The good news is Jesus came to set the captives free; He came to be our Savior, to be our deliverer. To rescue means to be set free from the oppression and the bondage of the enemy. That is one of the main purposes that Jesus had in coming, He wanted to rescue us from everything the enemy tried to do in our lives.

Sid: Give me just briefly what are the practical steps of deliverance.

Robert: The first step is Sid is to realize God has… when we were saved God gave us protection. God put His robe of righteousness around us; He gave us the breastplate of righteousness to protect us. So it’s not God’s intention that we should live under the oppression of the enemy, but because a lot of Christians have not been taught about Satan and about how he works; as we go through life we do things that open us up to satanic oppression. So when we realize that we see what are the things that open the door for this person to be oppressed and how can we close the door. It’s usually something very very easy, something simple to do. We have seen people that have had problems… there was young woman recently she had had nightmares every night of her life from the time she was about 4 years old because of some things that had happened to her. She dreaded going to sleep, and we met with her for about an hour and a half, and that night for the first night that she could remember she did not have a nightmare.

Sid: Tell me just some practical steps as you outline in your book that someone can do in a self-deliverance.

Robert: Well we go through first of all explaining who the devil and how he gains access. Then most of the chapters are taking us through very specific access points that most people have for the enemy; strongholds in the mind, strongholds in the heart, authority issues, forgiveness, and we just… going through a process of closing every door that may have been open to the enemy. Then at the end it talks about our authority and how we can take up authority and command those spirits to leave. If we’ve deal with our access they leave instantaneously.

Sid: You know it just sounds too easy, shouldn’t it be more… I mean they have all these books that are so complex.

Robert: Well you know it’s not supposed to be hard, it’s not supposed to be a difficult thing because it’s the heart of Jesus for His people. It was interesting Sid when I studied the feasts, the biblical feasts, that a number of these deliverance issues are dealt with in the feasts. If you… if a person is going through the feasts and as with real understanding of their purpose, they just stay free from the enemy. That’s how… that’s what God wanted, He wanted us to be free from the enemy. He wanted us to walk in the truth that would set us free so that we don’t have to live with the oppression of the enemy.

Sid: In your book you talk about the Passover is a picture of the removal of these doors, if you will for the enemy, explain.

Robert: Oh yes, well Passover it’s a picture and a celebration of deliverance. You know Derek Prince used to say “The strongest confession for deliverance you can make is ‘I am redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, out of the hand of the enemy.’” That’s what Passover is all about, it is being delivered by the blood of the Lamb. Part of the Passover celebration is people went through the Feast of Unleavened Bread was to search out your house and to see anything that was impure and remove it. That’s one of the main steps in deliverance; you search out to see what is impure, you remove it, and that breaks the power of the enemy.

Sid: Once that is broken because we’re in between Pesach, Passover and Shavuot, Pentecost right now then we can really have the joy of Pentecost.

Robert: Exactly.

Sid:  Well, my guest does the same works and I don’t know if I would call it greater but there’s some outrageous miracles that I don’t even read about in the Bible that happens under her ministry.  Her name, Marilyn Hickey; now Marilyn you’ve been speaking in mosques, and meetings, healing meetings all over the world especially you have a burden for Muslims you love Muslims.  But just out of curiosity how does this work in the United States, any success?

Marilyn: Great success, great success it’s the same thing it’s the demonstration of the Name of Jesus and of His Word because Muslims, and you know there’s Sunni’s, Sufi’s, Shiite, all of them believe that Jesus heals, it’s in their Quran.  Now what I like to do is get in where there’s a group of Muslims and have a demonstration.  So I thought in the history of Islam 1400 years a woman, a Christian woman, has never spoken in a mosque. I began to have a passion to have this happen and pray about it.  Well, Dearborn is where they have the most Muslims in the United States, they have 250,000 most of them are from Iraq and Iran.  And God gave me favor with an imam that’s the leader of a mosque; I went to see him, I got an audience with him first of all which is a miracle and told him what I wanted to do and he had a board member there.  He said, “We would never do that, I said, “I’d like to have a healing meeting in the mosque and I’d like…

Sid: Marilyn we have a Hebrew word for that, it’s called “Chutzpah, it’s called nerve.” Marilyn Hickey you have Chutzpah.

Marilyn: Oh, thank you so he said, “Well, we would never do that.”  And you know I just hold on to your faith, and I thought Lord this game is not over till I win.” You know 2^nd Corinthians 14 “He always leads us to triumph in Christ.”  So when I got up to leave he said, “Marilyn, the next time you’re here I’d like for you to come to our house, my wife and I would like to have you for dinner” and I knew there’s a crack in the door.  And so about 8 months later I went and had dinner with them and he said to me “What is it you want to do in the mosque?”  And I told him and he said, “Well, I believe we can do that.”  I said, “Would you be willing for me to put this on my television program and I will show you the DVD I wouldn’t do anything you’re uncomfortable with, you’re my friend.”  He said, “Yes!”  So we had a healing meeting in a mosque, wasn’t a big meeting, but dramatic miracles.

Sid: Tell me one.  Well, I’ll tell you about a little boy who did the reading of the Koran at the beginning and he couldn’t see well, had a big problem with his sight and God healed his sight and he came up and testified.  We had quite a few people healed of back problems and then we had refreshment afterwards and we had 11 Imam’s plus it wasn’t a big crowd but all of these Islamic people and so I went from table to table and you know I dressed like they dressed, I had my head covered. I would pray and they’ll say to you “Pray for my mother she’s sick or pray for me I’ve hurt my arm, or I have arthritis.”  And so I went from table to table; that gave me a lot of favor and then the Imam did a tapping with me and we became very good friends, his wife couldn’t have children, hadn’t been able to get pregnant, and now she has two, we prayed for her.  So that door has opened another door for me in Jakarta to go and have a healing meeting in a mosque.  But listen Sid, this is my passion, I want to go to Iran, there’s never been a healing in the history of Iran.  I want to have it in a university as a cultural exchange.

Sid: Now the thing that most people don’t understand is when there are miracles you say it’s because Jesus is healing you and you literally, this is hard for me to comprehend I mean it blows everyone’s paradigm, you have people at these meetings pray to know Jesus to be born again.

Marilyn: Yes, I didn’t in the mosque but I do in all of my healing meetings.  I didn’t do it in the mosque, I felt I was restricted from that. The big meeting January with 210,000 people I had people stand up to invite Jesus into their hearts.  And I won’t tell we had a sneaky way for follow-up so God is cool, He knows and I believe everyone listening to this program God has a miracle with your name on it.  You know He doesn’t just show up and show off in Islamic countries, He shows up and shows off where ever there’s faith.  Sid, I’d like to pray for healing miracles right now.

Sid: Please.

Marilyn: Lord, I just thank you for every person whose listening to this broadcast, who needs a healing miracle; I send the Word into their bodies that heals them and delivers them from this destruction.  Jesus we have the double cure, You take care of our inner man you take our sins and You take our sicknesses.  We take that wonderful glorious provision, and I thank you that people from all around are getting a miracle now and will contact Sid and say “Jesus, did this,” thank you Father in Jesus Name, Amen.

Sid: Marilyn I want to say something, and you are amazing, we did this radio broadcast much earlier than people are hearing right now, and the day before we did the broadcast you had this ceremony for your husband’s homecoming; how can you do this broadcast right now?

Marilyn: Because He’s in Heaven, you know we didn’t have a funeral, we had a celebration.  We had 1100 people and they would tell you we had a party, that’s what he wanted and he put on a video tape 2 ½ years ago an altar call for salvation, and we played it in the celebration.  You know I can’t, how can I say it, I can’t carry the grief and the sorrow because Jesus took it for me and honestly I don’t have the grief and sorrow; I’m so thrilled he is in Heaven; I’m so thrilled with the people who stood for salvation last night.  I’m so thrilled we prayed for the sick last night, for the people who are healed, that’s what Jesus would want and here Wally says on a video “Dear ones I’m in Heaven, but I’ve made this video before because my biggest collection is souls and I want yours to be here.”

Sid: Let me take you back to when you were 23 years of age, you went to went to church because there was a man you liked by the name of Wally you weren’t married at the time, and so you only went to that church for that reason. One day this fellow Wally says to you “I’m fasting and praying for you.”  Tell me briefly that story.

Marilyn: (Laughing) Well, I was very insulted because he said, “I’m fasting and praying for you.”  And I said, “Well, I’m saved.”  But he said, “But you’re not committed” and he said, “I served the devil with all my heart and now I’m going to serve God with all my heart and I’m not going to marry a woman who’s halfhearted.”  So he said, “I’m on a fast for three days and in that timing God spoke to me in the night and said, “I’ve dealt with you for four years for the baptism of the Holy Spirit and you say no and I’m not going to deal with you anymore, but I’ll show you if your turn this down at this time the baptism of the Holy Spirit you will move to California, you will marry a Christian, you’ll have a good life, you’ll die and go to Heaven; but He said, I have something so wonderful for you, you cannot imagine.”  And I totally surrendered for the power of the Holy Spirit and that was the beginning.  We married as you can guess.

Sid: Well, you know the operative word that you just spoke out of your mouth is what God is dealing with people listening to us right now.  Marilyn said she could have surrendered or she could have done it her way, she could have had a nice normal life or she could have fulfilled her destiny.  And some of you are saying “Well, I did miss it along the way.” I am saying with great confidence that God says He can redeem the time where you are right now, look what He did Jesus did in just 3 years, surrender, that’s His message for you right now.  Surrender to the Lord; you know how to do it, your words, repent of your sins, get a fresh start, make Him your Lord, read the Bible, mediate with us every day on a new scripture.  Marilyn let’s say were saying the same scripture all week, John 8:12 please say that quickly.

Marilyn: I am the light of the world, he that follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life,” wonderful light.

Sid: Before I started this interview I told Misty Edwards she provokes me to jealousy because I am, well my wife’s not here so I can say it.  I am proud when I get an hour’s worth of praying in tongues and worship in every day.  Misty the people out at IHOP that’s your lifestyle that’s your oxygen.  Tell me what your average day consists of in reference to prayer and worship.

Misty: Oh, well my average day inference to prayer and worship would be I usually lead one prayer meeting a day so that’s about a two hour period of time where I’m you know at the keyboard leading in worship and prayer.  Then I have another two hour block where I am in the prayer room with my Bible opened just praying in the Spirit; praying around the Psalms or whatever passage the Lord has going down my prayer list.  So about four hours a day I aim to be in the prayer room. I’m not saying all that’s you know deeply connected but at least my heart’s in front of the fire.

Sid: But you know I got saved at thirty; I didn’t as the Bible says I didn’t know my left hand from my right hand spiritually until I was 30 years of age. But at 5 you became a believer and the thing that intrigues me so much is that you had a strong sense of eternity. You knew life was short; how does a 5 year old even fathom those thoughts?

Misty: Oh, I mean I remember from being… some of my earliest memories are just sitting on my swings set trying to grasp forever.  You know I would be like “Forever, forever, forever, forever, mom how long is forever?”  And just that feeling of we’re never going to end and yet everybody dies.  You know my great grandmother passed away when I was very young and so I just had this awakening of that…we were all going to die and I just had a real sense of the fragility of life and the speed of which it was going.  Which I mean it just propelled me…

Sid: But how does a 5 year old have that sense?  But let me tell you my story, when I was about 5 my parents participated in athletics their sport of choice was poker.  And they were playing poker all night long.  And I’m a 5 year old sitting in the bed and the thought popped in my head “What happens when you die?”  I mean I don’t know where it came from, now I know it came from God and I pondered it and my conclusion was as a 5 year old “You cease to exist.” But your conclusion was right.

Misty: Well, I had godly parents for one thing and so when I asked my Mom “How long is forever and what happens when we die?”  She did give me an answer that satisfied me. I was very young when I came to know the Lord although I still had a sense of still  searching even after I’d said the sinners prayer, I still had a sense of “But why am I here?” I knew where I was going when I died but I couldn’t figure out why I existed, you know what was the purpose on this side of time.  See I think that that cry is in the heart of every 5, 6, 7 year old that’s the age where those thoughts and those longings are awakened in the human heart.

Sid: Okay, age 19 you go out to Kansas City to Bible School. Mike Bickel’s has a class on Song of Solomon.

Misty: Yes.

Sid: That had a major impact on you, explain.

Misty: It had a major impact of me, I was raised in a very loving family with a focus on holiness and character.  I felt the love of God on and off throughout my life, but in this Song of Solomon class Mike was really touching on the longings of the human heart, you know the longing for greatness, the longing for purpose, the longing for destiny, the longing for beauty to be enjoyed.  You know the basic longings of all humans in every culture that we have. He says that “In God we find the answers to these longings that He is the fountain of desire.”  And through the Song of Solomon and through the bridal paradigm as Mike calls it knowing Jesus as a Bride Groom with burning desire instead of just a master with a checklist totally changed my paradigm of God.  And my desire to respond to Him in the same kind of wholeheartedness that He was pursuing me and it radically changed my view of God which changed my worldview, which changed the view of myself.  I mean it transformed me radically.

Sid: Now with all of that prayer and all of those studies and all of the things that a 19 year old is involved in in life, you still managed to sneak away to the laundry room to get away so that you could seek God.

Misty: Yeah, and at that time you know I was working at a daycare center, I was a preschool teacher, this was a year before the House of Prayer had started; I was in Bible school but that class had awakened such a hunger in my heart. And I was saying “God if this is real,” like I’m kind of the kind of person that doesn’t get convinced easily. And so I like the feeling of hearing what Mike was saying but I kept saying “Is this real I have to know for myself.” So I would take the notes, I would take my Bible that little Song Solomon commentary and go into my little dirty apartment laundry mat and just say look at the stars and go “If You are there God and You hear me is this real; do You really feel this way about human beings, are you watching me right now?” And so it was almost a desperate cry at the same time of feeling His presence, it was a funny mixture of desperation and presence at the same time.

Sid: Now you wrote a song called “Doves Eyes.” Tell me about that.

Misty: Yeah.

Sid: Tell me about that.

Misty: “Doves Eyes” is out of the book of Song of Solomon.  The Bridegroom He says to the Shulamite that you have dove’s eyes.”  And what I believe that speaks of is a single vision, that you have focus; that you can’t…a dove cannot turn their eyes in either direction their fixed.  And so when the Bridegroom says to us “You have Dove’s Eyes.” He’s saying I see in you the sincerity to be mine even in our weakness.  You know I certainly have failed many, many times over the last fourteen years since I was 19.  I’ve failed many many times, but at the core of me He says “You have dove’s eyes.”  He say “I know you want me, I know your pursuing me just keep coming if you don’t quit you’ll win.”  And so to hear Him say that over my heart gives me courage when I do fail to run to Him instead of away from Him.

Sid: Let’s hear “Dove’s Eyes.” Excerpt: Misty Edwards sings (“Dove’s Eyes”)

Sid: Misty what’s going on inside of you, what’s exploding when you sing that song to God?

Misty: When I sing that song to God I hear Him singing that song to me.  When He looks at me and says “You do have dove’s eyes.”  And I feel so distracted and I have so many things going on in my life and my own failure, my own sin keeps me from going to the degree that I want to go in wholeheartedness.   But when He whispers to my heart “I see the sincerity of your heart I know that you love Me, keep coming to Me.”  It is the power that has kept me from quitting over the last decade in my life.  It is the power that motivates me knowing that He sees the sincerity of my heart, it’s revolutionary.

Sid: Although it’s revolutionary I have this question for you.  What keeps you powered to be so hungry for God after all these years?  Doesn’t it become routine to you?

Misty: Yeah, that’s a great question and it’s a question I asked myself often there are times especially in a culture of prayer where it can become very routine you know it becomes like a machine.  We know how to make it work and so I have to be really honest with myself and honest before God, and whenever I feel like my heart is getting cold and I’m just going through the motions I hear that verse in Revelation “That you have a name that your alive but you left your first love.”  And I’ve heard that a few times the Spirit has whispered that to my heart over the years. And I come to Him with repentance and I say “Lord, you wanted my heart from the beginning you didn’t want just me to show up in a prayer room every day that’s not even the point; the point is you want my heart. So I think it’s perpetual returning at the heart level connecting with the Holy Spirit.  And keeping that as my primary vision; my primary dream to go deep in His word and to go deep in the Spirit when I realign my mind and my heart over and over again.  I find that I have to sign back up you know regularly though.

Sid: You know when people hear you sing it’s literally the hunger for God the hunger for the presence of God it’s in your spiritual DNA and it comes out…

Sid: My guest Cris Putnam coauthor of the bestselling book “Petrus Romanus” the last Pope.  Cris on this Friday broadcast I want you to use what you know from having studied the documents in the Catholic Church and interviewing many people in the Catholic hierarchy what you know about scripture, and of course you are theologian, in your sanctified imagination paint me a picture of what we can expect from the last Pope.

Cris: Well, Sid what I’ve uncovered is some particularly disturbing theological constructs that have been adopted within Roman Catholicism.  It really goes back to the work of a Jesuit named Pierre Teilhard de Chardin.  Chardin was a paleontologist that operated… he really discovered evidence for evolution and Darwinism in the early 20^th century. During his time he was widely considered a heretic in Catholic circles.  Now why do people think that Pope Benedict the 16^th he gets described as a conservative in the media and that’s because of his stances on things like abortion and same sex marriage.  And yes he takes conservative stances on those sorts of issues that I found some really startling statements that he’s really adopted Chardin’s concept of evolution.  Chardin kind of pioneered this really mystical system of Darwinism and you know the whole idea of aliens and beliefs in extraterrestrials living on other planets this whole idea of astrobiology it’s really phenomenally founded on a world view that says that life is really not special that it just sort of evolves when the conditions are right.  If you have water and a planet a certain distance from its star with the temperatures are helpful then life will just kind of pop into being.  And because of this they postulate that there’s millions of planets out there, there’s really no reason to assume that the earth is special so we should think that life has to appear all over the place.  And this is the world view that drives modern astronomy and astrobiology; the modern Jesuits have widely accepted this world view and these tenets of the earth being a mediocre planet amongst many.  Now given these world view issues it’s kind of astounding that when I hear people saying that Pope Benedict is you know conservative because he wholeheartedly endorsed this Darwinistic worldview where man is just an evolved prime-mate and you know that extraterrestrials are inevitable culinary to that worldview.  Now with that in mind a lot of things that they write start to come into focus; some of their retrospective theologians Giuseppe Tanzella Nitti who is a member of Opus Dei, and a professor of theology at the University of Holy Cross at Rome.  Has actually written quite a bit on what they call exo-theology.  Now he’s talking about unexpected information of a religious character from extraterrestrial civilizations.  Now what he recommends is that we have to submit this new religious contact coming outside of the earth to analysis of reasonableness.  And once that trustworthiness of this information has been verified then we should try to reconcile the new information with the truth that we already know or believe on the basis of revelation of One True God.  Conducting, this is his words, “A rereading inclusive of the new data similar to that of that would be applied in ordinary religious dialogue.”  So he’s saying that we should reread the revelation that we’ve been given in light of this new data from extraterrestrials.  Now this is their own writings and so it seems like they are anticipating this and have laid the foundation for it.  Now the thing that I find deeply troubling about that is that you know that the track record of them rereading revelation and inter-religious dialogue is already pretty dismal.

Sid: So when you’re saying rereading are you saying reinterpreting it and totally changing the gospel.  Is that what you’re implying?

Cris:  Yeah I think that that is the danger, I think that is what we are looking at and you know the thesis that Tom Horn and I are advocating is that we don’t believe in extraterrestrials.  I mean just to be really honest the Bible doesn’t say one way or the other, BUT it doesn’t give me the impression…you know the Bible has a Philosophy of history you know it tells us that God has a plan for the earth and that the earth is central in His plan.  It tells us that angels long to look into these things.  You know the earth and humanity are a central focus of what we read in scripture.

Sid: Okay if you don’t believe in extraterrestrials what do you believe in?  Do you believe that there will be demons that will pose in that position; is that what you believe?

Cris: That’s absolutely what my thesis is because I don’t see anything in scripture about advanced-extraterrestrials coming down here to help us evolve which is the message that we get from the people that claim to have contact with these things.  But I do see a lot in scripture about a strong delusion a…

Sid: Okay paint me a picture of what this strong delusion could look like in the next few minutes.

Cris: Well, it could happen in several ways, it could be as obvious as a huge UFO appearing over a major city and you know these beings communicating to us that they’re here to save us, that they are the creators. I mean this idea of panspermia that life on earth originated from space is actually very popular within scientific circles.  It could be something as subtle as that it doesn’t have to be a huge UFO over the cities I mean that’s what we expect from the movies.  But it could something as subtle as scientific evidence saying that we were created off earth, or that aliens seeded life on earth; it could be something as subtle as that.  I suspect that it will be somewhere in the middle I kind of think that we will see some sort of entity claiming to be an extraterrestrial; now that’s my speculation. And I think part of that message would be something along the lines of panspermia, and panspermia is the idea that life on earth was seeded from space.

Sid: You know everything that you’re saying to me leads me to one specific scripture which I’ve stated before as I’ve interviewed you and your coauthor and that is 2^nd Thessalonians chapter 2 verse 11. “And for this reason God will send them strong delusion that they should believe the lie.”  If they’re not going to believe the truth God says “We’re going to believe the lie.” Everything you tell me has that scripture just shouting at me.  What do you think about that?

Cris: Yeah, I think that that scripture has a lot of explanatory script.  I think about the way people have been led away from believing in God as creator that you know that this disillusion is going to be clothed in the language of science.  And the sort of thing that people with this naturalistic scientific world view are prime to accept in something like this, something like an extraterrestrial; because it seems to have scientific creditability.

Sid: And another ear mark of the last days is men’s… men are going to be so fearful on what’s coming on the earth.  This all ties in with all the documentation you have accumulated.

Cris:  Yeah, you know when Jesus used that language you know of what is coming of the earth, that seems to be implying something that is seen an extraterrestrial or something not of this earth for it not to come on the earth it must originate from somewhere else.